Aloy block for 6a12 Mivec engine!!!

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:00 pm

Ok that tank that the 8a80 is in is the ugliest thing i've ever seen! But from reading up on it somewhere I got this idea.....
I apologize for mentioning the word Hyundai

, but I'm just wondering how similar a 2.7 g6ba engine (as used in the tiburon and many other models) is to a 6a13 galant engine. The hyundai motor is all aluminum and has an 86.7 mm bore and 75 mm stroke, a galant 6a13 engine has an 81 mm bore and an 80.8 mm stroke. Although many hyundai engines are built directly from Mitsu designs, I don't think this one is copied from a galant engine- but it would be awesome if Mivec heads would bolt on! Maybe with redrilled holes for the head studs?????? And a forged bottom end

Apparently the tiburon engine "features powder metal-forged, fracture-split connecting rods"- whatever that means. Still for a hyundai, they're meant to be pretty good. And this would make sense, if they're built on mitsu engineering as many of the hyundai engines are. If the mivec heads could fit this block.... then damn

SchumieFan · Post by **SchumieFan** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:07 pm

i was under the impression Hyundai had their own plant in the US, one in Karea and theyre building 1 in the Chek rep?

where did you hear they were using mitsu plants... doesnt make sense.... korea-japan? HUGGGGGe competitors

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:46 pm

Yeah I think Hyundai have/ had a plant in Canada, not sure about in the us but quite likely. a lot of the older hyundai engines are built off of mitsu designs- there seems to be an unwriten law that this info is kept from public knowledge or something. I'm not saying they're stealing the designs, but that they have a contract with mitsu, and part of that contract might be not leaking the info- to give hyundai the image of being totally independent or whatever. I mean, i've seen old excels with evo 3 engine bolting up and whatnot......
I think it's possible that the tiburon engine is a galant engine, with hyundai codes stamped on and a different crank- giving a different bore, because of totally different cam profiles to the mitsu released engines???? But hyundai made them all aluminium... if you check out hyundai forums, the sonata dudes are all into swapping mitsu turbo engines in... but they seem to think the g6bv (?? from sonata) is a 6g73 ????? What the

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:21 am

Didn't excels use 4G15s?
And 4G63 swaps seem popular into hyundais as well

But the 2.7 tiburon engine with MIVEC heads and forgies would be UNBELIEVABLE in a Lancer!

But I doubt it would be so simple... nothing ever is for us

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:27 pm

Yeah the hyundais have definitely had a close relationship with mits. The mid 90s engines seemed to often be exact copies, while the newer engines, while noted as being complete hyundai designs, seem to be very closely related to mitsu engines. Take a look at this tiburon 2.7
http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/s ... 4_full.jpg

looks a hell of a lot loke a 6a** engine dosen't it? (Albeit with cheapo looking intake manifold). I think the possibility of mivec heads being modified (maybe new holes drilled on the deck or something) is something atleast worth looking into. I don't think it's gonna be as easy as k20 head on k24 block or whatever, but unless anyone has actually tried to do this, I don't think they can say it definitely won't work.

Black_FTOGPX · Post by **Black_FTOGPX** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:35 pm

Yeah its pretty common for auto companies to share technology,
Basically the korean companies use Mitsubishi's previous lineup of engines in just about all their cars. (thats why they are so cheap) they just buy the tools off mitsubishi when they are done with them.
(Same deal with proton)

SchumieFan · Post by **SchumieFan** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:01 pm

spetz wrote: But the 2.7 tiburon engine with MIVEC heads and forgies would be UNBELIEVABLE in a Lancer!

But I doubt it would be so simple... nothing ever is for us

f**k the lancer! itd be awsome in an FTO!

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:37 am

What's the point hauling around an extra 200kg?
F**K the Lancer, go the Mirage you should say!

But realistically Droidy again one of those things where it's way too much money/effort

Just be happy that a cast iron block is stronger than alloy!
And besides the block isn't THAT big...
Heads are alloy and so is the crank case etc
The block would be about 15-20kg heavier at the most over an identical alloy one
You can get rid of 15kg so much easier! And the block sits low in the engine so it's not the biggest issue
The heads are damned heavy and sit fairly high up in the engine bay... not good

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:51 am

Yeah I know what you mean spetz... casting or machining one is a big job/expensive... but people do do it. Dart even make a b20 block!! Even though the oem one is already alloy, the one they make is a sligtly different type of aluminium which is meant to be more tensile, and they beef up the casting to make it stronger I guess. If only 6a12 mivecs were popular in the states, there would probably be a miriad of aftermarket parts for it. I still don't understand why there's hardly an aftermarket for this motor- it's so underated.

So f#*k it, start your own aftermarket.

Basically this hyundai delta engine, from the tiburon etc, is pretty much based on a 6g73. I'm not saying it's exactly the same- as in parts from one are the same as the other, but the foundation of the design is the same. Now I don't honestly know very much about th 6g7* series, but I did a little online research and found out that the 6g73 has the same head gasket kit as a 6a13.

So if a 2.7 hyundai delta is essentially based on a 6g73, and a 6g73 has the same head dimensions and hell even the same bore and stroke as a 6a13, and 6a12 mivec heads will bolt onto a 6a13 block...... is it really immpossible that this might work????
What the hell is the difference between a 6a13 and a 6g73 anyway??? They both have the same displacement- they must be pretty similar. I wonder does this also mean that the fto mivec heads are the same as the ones on the diamante mivecs (6g74??) I've never thought about it before.

If you move battery to the boot etc- yes that's a great start- I just want to do this AND have a lightweight engine

Have you ever noticed spetz how low a k20 sits in a civic with hassport mounts? I've been thinking it would probably be possible to modify your mounts and have the v6 lower in the bay. Say, put a spacer between the mount and the top of the bolts on the engine and gearbox side mounts, and grind off the bottom of the brackets on the crossmember mounts. You could probably drop it an inch using this method quite easily- giving the engine a lower centre of gravity/making it a little less top heavy.
You've said it yourself, the reason the civic hybrids are so fast is because of the lightness and ratios. You've figured out the solution to the latter- all I'm saying is, this could be the key to the first problem. It's gotta be worth trying. Plus, it would run cooler and potentially be more powerful. I'm not thinking it would bolt straight over- but with this hyundai delta engine already being alloy, and being so damn similar to the mitsu engine, it's likely to be cheaper/easier to custom fit the mivec heads on it than to manufacture a new engine block from the ground up.

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:41 am

Actually the 6G7 and 6A1 engines are very similar. In fact the 6A1 engines are based on the 6G7
But based on, and similar etc doesn't mean easy swap

I think there are too many if variables here.

As far as dropping the engine lower, trust me I have researched and wanted to do this

Yes, I have noticed how low engines sit in Honda's! It all adds to them being so awesome. However the gearbox casing sits very close to our I beam for the engine mounts. So close that I'd be wary to move the engine lower in case it hits while the engine moves around

Sure, it might be moved a little bit but it still comes down to cost vs benefit.
Trust me I just did all the bushes, swaybars, strut braces, Tein's etc and the car is starting to feel solid and doesn't feel nose heavy anymore. In fact it feels well balanced now. And this is still before any weight reduction or relocation.

I know it would be nice to modify a Lancer to this extent but at some stage it does get too much.
I think I will be buying an Evo or a Honda before I get anywhere near that stage

At the moment I am just thinking about getting that 2.5L engine from RPW. Yes, unlike the website it is actually around 13K + shipping backwards and forwards, fitting and tuning. So roughly a $16,000 job
Financially I will be able to do this within a couple of months but this is an insane amount of money to spend considering for 20K I can have an Evo engine and AWD in the car.

And, then realistically why not sell the lancer and buy an Evo

I don't know with these cars... I really think it's an illness... an addiction...

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:27 pm

Yeah I know what you mean spetz- it's an obsession, but I think when I get the engineering/performance results I want, It'll all be worth it.
Dude I just had a quick look at my engine bay- I see what you mean about the crossmember being close to the gearbox. But the solution is so easy it's not even funny. Actually it is 'cause it's cool

. Get longer bolts for the enine mount bolts (the side one up high on the drivers side), because there's not nuch thread to play with on them. Then just put a urethane spacer, hell you could just use bushes from skateboard trucks to test this theory out. Do the same for the gear box side mount- these bolts have plenty of thread left on them so you wouldn't even need to change them. For the crossmember, just put spacers on the bolts here to! (The ones that go up into the bottom of the radiator support and underside of the fire wall). If I remember correctly, from the last time I ripped the engine out of my car, these bolts are pretty long.

Vola- your entire engine assembly would sit as much lower as you like- depending on how thick the spacers you use are. Hell, you could go down to Bunnings and get these kinda things and do it yourself this arvo! I know value for money is important, but these kinda things, you can do yourself for a couple o' bucks. This method is even better than my first Idea, cause there's no grinding/cutting needed at all.

So anyways, here's the hyundai 2.7 bare block..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NIB-HYUN ... dZViewItem
It's aluminium

and for purposes of comarison, the 6a13 rpw is gonna put the mivec heads on one day

http://www.rpw.com.au/Photos/Engine%20P ... id%201.jpg

So the only real difference from looking at photos is the one oil return missing on the right side of the hyundai block. It's a bit like those spot the difference pics, only there's not that many differences, apart from one oil return- oh, and one being a high tech modern composite alloy, and one being a f*#king anchor off the Titanic.

Hell the head studs (atleast some of them) might even line up! As for that oil return, and the sligtly different shaped other ones/coolant chambers etc, I think a little cnc machining and could solve that.

And just think, tiburons, terracan, santa fe's (stuffed if I know anything about hyundais) are all released in this country, as opposed to 96+ galants. I've already found plenty of wreckers that have these in stock- hope to have a quote for bottom end next week. Maybe a blessing in disguise that I haven't sourced a 6a13 yet.

Speaking of 6a13s, Kempy's quoted me $600 nz for a 96+ 6a13 sohc bottom end, though I've heard you can get them even cheaper in nz than that. This rpw frankenstien- Spet'z, if rpw quote's a price, then that's what it should be. It's bullsh*t when people underquote, it's dishonest, unethical, and probably illegal. I don't care if you're a builder or a performance mechanic, a quote is a quote. I realise the motor has argo rods, cp pistons etc... so what?? I don't buy that whole timing belt thing... how hard is it to get one custom made? It's hype, and you could get the same motor built/tuned over here for a HELL of a lot less than that.
Dude, I love evos, I was actually passing through canberra last week and pulled up at the lights on Northbourne ave. This lowered blue evo 8 cruised accross infront of me and I was like HOT DAMN

They're sick cars... no doubt, and I'm gonna get one one day.
But hey check this out..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hn-F6H6RNEo& ... ed&search=

That's the kinda stuff that inspires me to go fwd na

If you can do that with a k24 civic... then you can do it with a 2.7 mivec lancer!
with the tourqe of a "big block" aluminium Mivec and the right ratos, stripped/ carbon fibre etc.. SEEYA

(to v8s etc)

The thing I love about my car is that so many people hate it

so it will make it extra sweet when I woop they @ss

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:52 pm

btw spetz that's frikken awesome about the swaybars etc- I think I saw your write up on the mogwa forum. I want to come u to canberra again soon so would be sick to check out your ride. I want to put a half cage in my car. That way, with padded x braces across the doors, I got side intrusion protection built into the shell/chasis

Chromoly tubing is only like 60 bucks a metre- I think you tig weld it? I'll have to ask someone about that. Work well with lightweight doors, which will save atleast 35 kg

Plus, does anyone know the differency between the distance between the radiator support and firewall on a cg series lancer, and a ce lancer, or for that matter, an fto? Evo 8.5 I think has an alloy crossmember.. it's one of them any way, 8.5 or 9.

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:11 pm

ok one more link- peole you just gotta see this..
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8ZY61BT7gjo
kinda make a 12.5 look slow huh? Don't know th 60 ft time, but it's obvious that the tourqe of a big block frankenstien na inetia supercharged engine in a fwd light chasis can have a hella fast holeshot. Amazing. Then you just utilize the topend and run one hell of a elapsed time. Could this just be a k24? Gotta find out. If I get my lancer to run in the elevens I'll be spastic stoked.

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:23 pm

Here's another link- this one to an eclipse forum in the states. Very interesting about the gearbox- japanes made, and the same unit used in some toyotas and nissans, but with different ratios. Rhis is starting to look very very good.

http://www.club3g.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63184

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:39 pm

ok one more link lol This is a 6g72 block
http://www.3sxperformance.com/images/st ... 01-300.jpg
It's so close to being exactly the same as the hyundai block it's ridiculous! If you had the diamante Mivec heads- I think they would practically bolt straight on, probably requiring a little machining to line up the coolant chambers etc. With the fto heads, it's gonna be a little more work, but I reckon it's possible.
The other thing is, with tiburons being popular in the states, there's probably a set of forged rods available somewhere, which means it's could be cheaper to build a forged bottom end for this motor than for a 6a13.

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:58 pm

Firstly, I don't think you can really judge blocks just from photos
I mean, keeping in mind just 1mm can make or break this idea. And considering playing with such a small margin I think you're bound to get into trouble

As for dropping the engine... Honda's have engines sitting low down but it's that and like 100 other things that makes them so great. I am unsure if moving the engine down will make much benefit. Might just be equivelant to dropping the car like 10mm more or something? If not even less of a difference

BTW, my car is not registered anymore and wont be until the new engine is in it

yay for defects!

In the end, seriously those are great ideas, and if they worked you would have an unbelievable car which could turn around the hole MIVEC Vs VTEC YO!!!!! thing. A few cars like that showing up VTEC YO!!!!!'s and all of a sudden people want a Lancer not a Civic with MIVEC and not VTEC YO!!!!!

As with me... I am getting older (23 now man

) and the Lancer was cool when I bought it new and it had it's chromies when I was like 18. But now I just feel that I am too old for a car like this and should step up a bit. Unfortunately the cars I want are way too expensive!

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:40 pm

Well I think dropping the engine is worth doing- just to see what it's like. I'm just curious, and it wouldn't be too hard. I know what you mean, I'm 27 dude! What the f#*k have been doing for the last five years.

Well yeah I had the whole chromies thing happening, then the droid1 kit and 18s got boring hella quick. Now I feel like society expects me to mature, get a type s, or an accord euro, or an evo??? But far at the end of the day who cares what people think... to be honest I think I'd regret it if I sold my car. If/when I get an evo, I want to kee this one- you should always keep you're first car I think, or so I've heard.
To be honest, I've spent the last five years researching how to get my car like I want/as fast as I want... it's probably pretty lame when you think about it... what can I say- I'm completley f*#ked up. Was this ftoaus dot com or I'm f@*ked up dot com??

I'm sure when I get my car to run an 11.7- my girl will want me back

I guess after all the effort I've put into this- for so god damn long- it's gotta work out or It's all been for nothing. I've gone past the point of no return- and there's no turning back. Not financially, but psychologically. I've got to finish what I started.
If this works- and it has to work- it's gonna be fricken awesome. Just because an evo is an evo- has 4wd and the status and the pricetag that proves you're so much better than everyone else because you can afford one

- all this doesn't matter if it's not as quick as the car next to it.

I should start a thread called, if you didn't buy this car/what would you have? Honestly, if I went out to buy a car tommorrow, I would toss a coin-heads eg hatch-simply because of weight, and ek hatch- just because I love the look of them. I love jdm dc2rs the most to be honest. Either way, it would be a k24 frank with type r head/tranny going in- no question.

Having said that, I finished painting my car magnesium mettalic (dc5r integra type s colour) last week,well pretty much, it needs some work to fix u some stuff, and with stock fto wheels, it looks sick. So an evo 8 is rad, a dc5r is awesome, a civic hybrid is crazy, a lancer hybrid is damn cool- fto's are still great after all these years (ahead of they're time)they're all good as far as I can see.

I think th easiest way to test this theory is to get a hyundai 2.7 head gasket kit and line it u against the bottom of the head. Pretty easy for me cause my 6a12 is in pieces anyway- hope charlie still has it

Maybe I can 'plug' that one oil return- got two others!?

I dunno- can you be in love with five chicks at once?

Damn I don't know what's impoertant anymore... quater mile times and playing the blues seem to be all that matters to me anymore. So sad.

Yes I'm an emotional cat.

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:28 pm

Found a low km g6ba short engine for 350 bucks- was in a kia sportage!

What a performance car. So I'm gonna pick that up, and go from there.

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:36 am

When you reckon you'll know if it's a fit?
I can maybe see if Charlie can send my head gaskets to you, so you can check, and then send them back to him

Nacho · Post by **Nacho** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:55 pm

Would an alloy block be able to withstand higher boost levels that a standard block?

If not, what material do they use to be able to withstand ridiculous boost levels?