Aloy block for 6a12 Mivec engine!!!

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:28 am

Hey everyone how's it going? I have a proposal, and I don't know if anyone's thought of it before.. I'm wondering, who would be interested in replacing their heavy ass cast iron 6a12 block with one that weighs half as much??! Think of the difference this would make, for performance and handling!! I'm currently trying to get in contact with the guru in Melbourne who specialises in such things, check out www.dmdaustralia.com.au to get a bit more info on this process... rest assured, it is possible.
At this stage I'm trying to gauge interest, so I can go with a proposal with numbers to this guy.. no doubt this is one of those things that is gonna be cheaper if more and more people are on board.
I'm psyched to make this happen, vtecs are gonna lose their edge

FTO338 · Post by **FTO338** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:18 am

Well i don't want to sh*t on your parade, but with cost vs gain, its not worth doing on a FTO.

However since you got a lancer, it might be worth doing as the 6A12 would add a fair bit of weight & upset the original weight distribution or balance of the car. So with a lighter engine block it might help to regain the balance.

But for any FTO owner, with the cost involved, thatâ€™s including labour to take your original engine apart and then put it back with this new alloy block, mind as well get the 6A12/13 MIVEC Hybrid from RPW.

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:44 am

sounds like an idea if u are trying to get some better performance out of your car. a initial price would be good.

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:17 pm

Yes, the weight distribution is all messed up with the v6 in the lancer. It's as much about overall weight reduction as it is balance though! It seems a lot of people are very interested in this 6a13 frankenstien engine. I understand it took them a while to get the bits and pieces needed to build it, but to be honest, I can't see why it isn't already finished and in a car somewhere, so we can all see what the results are like, finally!!!
I think the main problem, that is excluding a lot of potential buyers, is the cost. I believe I have a solution to bring the cost right down of this engine, but thats another story, as yet I haven't recieved correspondence from Dave on this issue.
Honestly, I am everybit as keen to see an all alloy block for the 6a13 hybrid, if not more so, than the 6a12. I personally believe, from a performance/efficiency perspective, it's ridiculous and unsuited to have an iron block on a naturally aspirated engine- it's like trying to run cross country whith you're own bodyweight on a barbell on your back!!
I believe weight reduction is the key to success in the NA performance game, not suprisingly, the motor is the heaviest part of a car, so it sucks to start with the disadvantage of an iron block. I don't have an indication of ballpark costs as yet, but stay tuned, because I'm going to be doing everything i'm humanly capable of to make this happen. Can you tell I'm psyched on this idea??!!

Checkout my thread on the mogwa forum for more on this breakthrough discovery

payaya · Post by **payaya** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:28 pm

can anyone really be bothered? Not only you have to pay for block but also pull the engine apart to put new block in.

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:08 pm

That is true, I am in the convenient situation of having a dissasembled v6 mivec engine that needs rebuilding.. if there was an alloy block available for the 6a13, and you could use reasonably priced rods and pistons, you're stock mivec crank, bult on the mivec heads, would people be interested in that??

dannyboyau · Post by **dannyboyau** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:33 pm

good luck

I couldn't get any one interested in aluminium flywheel for the FTO so i doub't you would get anyone willing to fork out for a aluminium block

Hobbsie · Post by **Hobbsie** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:25 pm

this would cost at least 5-10 grand..

payaya · Post by **payaya** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:41 pm

your better off spending the money and intensive labour on mods. You would spend nowhere near as much and obtain better performance.

I guess some racing team could use the block somewhere.

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:48 pm

yeah I realise it won't be especially easy, or cheap to pay someone to do this but for me, it makes no sense to have an engine that heavy in the front of a lancer, and expect it to have nimble handling, and VTEC YO!!!!! like performance. In the long run, light weight components are more ecconomical and environmentally friendly, because it simply takes less fuel to move a car that doesn't weigh as much. That's why international goverment bodies are pushing major manufacturers to develop light weight automotive comopnents. There's always the option to internally modify the engine/heads down the track, at the very least, to start off, I plan to up the compression a little anyway. At this stage I am hoping to gain some interest from some people who are using this engine in motorsport, and possibly people in the Uk.

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:23 am

Droidy,
I again will ruin it for you...

I have picked up the 6A12 block. Yes it is heavy, but not that heavy. I would say roughly 40kg for the block
So, even at half it would save 20kg
Sure this is a good saving but not for cost.
Realistically 11kg saved from a carbon bonnet for about 1K is better. Plus relocate battery to the boot and already together this is like 25kg
Not only that, but because these items are located so high in the front of the car, it will give a better effect than a alloy block as it will lower the centre of gravity more than if just the block saved the weight

This would be great for a no money issue full track car (in which case I am sad to say, buy a Honda if you want a NA FWD car)

However I am still interested so if you do get price (say 1 only, 5, 10, 20 etc) that would be great

RedlineGX · Post by **RedlineGX** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:23 am

I would have to agree, I dont think price vs gain would be justified. Before i was t/charged i thought about staying N/A and really dropping some weight off the car but realised by the time i invested in c.fiber parts i would spend more than the turbo work.

Plus it wouldnt be nearly as fast and my car would be stripped ugly. So unless the block weighed almost 100kg and this could be done for about $2000 or less and you had another reason to pick down your engine i dont think it would be worth it. Power to weight ratio would mean you would feel like you gain about 15bhp if you dropped 100kg.

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:28 am

Also to add, I have picked up the heads, and believe it or not even though they are alloy, they weigh more than the block I would say!
Though they are an odd shape to pick up so that can be it

Droidy, listen to my advice from my experience. You want to make your lancer something unbelievable, something completely different

Until one day you will see how much money you have spent and how really just go buy a Honda!!!
EK coupe with K20A
Faster than the lancer will ever be, better weight distribution than the lancer will ever be, better suspension setup up, quicker with easier hop up bits, and looks better too
Will turn out cheaper as well

It's so sad. I just want a Honda

But screw this my lancer will be NA and will handle good! Damn stupid stubborn me!

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:30 am

Spetz, you're so hard to follow man!!! When I originally mentioned the idea of the alloy block to you, I know you thought, not worth it, but I gotta follow it up man. You say don't denigrate Mitsu, now you say get a honda

I know what you mean, and my first choice of car since I was in high school was an ek hatch.. But alas, here I am with a ce lancer!!! At the time of buying, it was cheaper than a Civic..
Ofcourse, I was planning to relocate the battery and get a light weight hood. I actually wasn't aware the factory one was that heavy. I realise honda engines have crome-moly crank shafts, this special roof design in the combustion chamber.. you don't have to convince me that vtecs are good! I'm not convinced Mivecs aren't good though!
I've picked one of the heads on a 6a12 Mivec engine too, ofcourse theres weight to it, just about half as much as iron. I think the block could be more than 40 kilos, but my engine is at charlies, so I cant say. I'd go pick it up, stand on a scale and subtract the difference, but it's 5 hrs away.
It seems that you can only do so much with the 6a12, I figure eventually you simply hit a brick wall when it comes to extracting power from a naturally aspirated engine in a street car, wether it's a honda or a mitsubishi. Spetz you got friends there with VTEC YO!!!!! civics? try and add 25 kg of weight in the engine bay some how, (I have no idea how you could do this) and tell me you don't have a completely different car. Infact I'm gonna go put 2 20kg plates from my home gym in2 the front of my car, just to be crazy and see what happens..

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:30 am

ok guess what- it sucked!! Can you believe that

Ok I did add 40 kg, but still.... but you know what, in terms of handling and responsiveness, it felt exactly like hrd2bqt's old car.. just with out the fantastic lsd and screaming to 8500 rpm bit

ok so my engine is just the 1.5, but it is usually suprisingly responsive due to the mandrel bent exhust and high flow cat I already have fitted, ready for the new engine. Spetz, I've seen you say in posts I've read that the vtecs you've driven have traction, and just 'go', where as the mitsu's spin the wheels a bit, or as hard2bqt seem to find at the strip, wheel hop. 'nightmare' I think was the term he used. Ok so suspension, tyres, tyre pressure etc. are all isues that come into play, but did you ever wonder if the reason the hondas just 'get up and go', dosn't have atleast a bit to do with the fact that they dont have a huge block of cast iron between the front wheels? I'm convinced this is a HUGE part of the problem with that blue lancer, but honestly I love that car. I just see how it could be better.
To be honest people, I agree the 6a13 frankenstein is where it's at. Spreading the 2.5 litres of displacement over 6 cylinders is just ideal. 81 mm bore x 80.8 stroke, it's virtually perfect! If you do a k24 franky, you've got a 87 mm bore with a 99mm stroke, not exactly the best for high rpm.. The 6a13 with mivec heads is theoretically perfect, except for the f*#@ing block!!!
In an ideal world, I'd have a titanium composite block, I think it's theoretically possible to produce one of them that has a relative strength to a regular alloy composite part, however instead of being 50% the weight of cast iron, it's more like 15%! But I think that one's more in the realms of racing fantasy than reality

At the end of the day, yes vtecs are great, that's being tried, tested and proven true. But think about it, there's just no challenge to it! Steph Papadakis, Shaun Carlson, all those dudes wanted to race imports because they were sick of seeing v8s run good times at the drags. It's just boring! But even vtecs are becoming boring! You can't fail with them, and because of that, there's less satisfaction when you succeed. With Mivec, you're more of an individual, it's rarer, no matter where you live. If you guys didn't feel that way, you'd probably be driving r33 gts-ts or vl commodores or whatever it is conformists drive.
At the end of the day, although speed is important, being unique and creating something noone has seen before is every bit as important to me. That's why I'm in this.
And it's not just about power- it's about power to weight! To go to the extreme, the majority of motoring journalists say the best car they've ever driven is that lotus thing that has the k20 in it, the one that weighs 690 kg or whatever it is. And that's gotta mean that these dudes think that thing is more fun than the Lambos, Carrera Gt's and what ever else. It's not that impossible to be getting as much power and torque out of 6a12/6a13 Mivec setup, if not substantially more. Eventually, you hit a brick wall with na power, even if it is a VTEC YO!!!!! and you've got 30 grand worth of JUN gear in it. The logical solution is to go psycho with weight reduction, casting an alloy block psycho, carbon fibre doors psycho. I can appreciate turbo/supercharged power, but I'm taking the na route to the top.
I can also appreciate that if people with an fto weren't already rebuilding a Mivec engine, that this wouldn't be a viable Idea, but I just thought I'd find out.
Just another point about weight reduction with na performance, everyone knows about these civics with a striped out chasis even, and there running flat 10s with just a built up b18- the equivalent of a vti-r integra engine. Another extreme example, but it proves the point. If you gonna stay na, you just gotta be as commited to shedding weight as gaining power, but that's just my opinion. Sorry for the novel.

Black_FTOGPX · Post by **Black_FTOGPX** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:17 pm

If you want to make good weight reduction gains, your better off reducing weight on moving parts themselves. e.g wheels, brakes, suspepsnion,drive train.
Removing 10kgs of weight from anything that is moving, would be the same as removing 20kg of dead weight.

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:53 pm

i.e. the stock rims which weigh sh*t loads...and not some heavy arse wheels from bob-jane either...

SG · Post by SG » Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:22 pm

the other thing is when you take off from a standing start at high rpm etc, the back of the car squats down & the front lifts up because of weight transfer... you fix that with stiff shocks at the rear and softer shocks at the front, and anti-lift kits, and whatever, but i think more weight at the front would also help to do it.. to reduce the weight transfer to the back create front lift

i'd be going carbon fibre boot and more weight up front to increase the traction and launch rpm, and remove whatever interior parts, then get a gearbox setup so you can do flat changes

though youd probably need to do something totally different for circut racing....

idawina · Post by **idawina** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:38 pm

I have a 6a12 in a lancer and the I cannot tell the difference in handling with the 'heavier" engine (only 20 kg more). Its a myth!

droidy · Post by **droidy** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:24 pm

Thanks for the feedback people! That's a very interesting point about reducing the weight of moving parts, and the gains of doing so. I believe you can use evo 5 control arms on the front, which are alloy from the factory. These are moving parts!

Well asfar as the suspension travels anyway.. I've carried the stock front control arms and they are fricken heavy! Asfar as wheels, yeahh I've picked up the stock fto wheels, and they are heavy! I'm glad I didn't get them.. I think 16' enkeis are the best value for money when it comes to strength and light weight.
Idawina, is your's a 2 door coupe or a four door? And how fast is it? If yours is a four door, it probably isn't going to upset the balance quite as much as a coupe. If you're not convinced that an alloy block doesn't make a big difference, have a drive of a even a bigger honda, like a v6 accord. Even though it's not a 'killer B' or "special K', honestly, you can feel how responsive it is, it's a pleasure to drive, because the engine design is just right from the ground up.
Speaking of reduction of weight of moving parts, I wonder how heavy and well balanced a 6a12 Mivec crank is, compared to a crome-moly crank in a VTEC YO!!!!! engine? Apparently, the fact that VTEC YO!!!!! cranks are light, strong and well balanced, has a lot to do with why they're so silky smooth at high rpm.
Anyway's in theory, I believe with an alloy 2.5 mivec, the right gearbox (???) the right compression (?), the right internals (???) enkies, semislicks, teins (set up high and hard at the back), evo control arms, carbon hood, dry cell battery in the boot, e-manage, no air con pump, stripped interior, lightweight boot (evo's aliminium) maybe cf doors if I can find a way to engineer them in australia (side intrusion bars??) a 12.9999 could be a possibility.. in a technically street legal setup. There's just no way of knowing what this frankenstein engine can do yet...