So...
I am in a bit of a better financial situation now
And thinking that if the 2.5 is a no go (which seems like it is considering it jumped 3-4K from it's advertised price on the RPW site)
I am now though thinking about going forged internals
CP 12.5:1 pistons, Crower Econo rods, ARP2000 bolts, valve springs and cryo the crank, and ARP head bolts
This will allow me to do cams later, along with maybe a 6 pack throttle body setup as if I do cams I will upgrade to full standalone ECU
Just wondering, to get it to rev safely to 10,000rpm roughly, what is needed? Oil pump? Bearings?
Should I get my heads reported with possibly larger valves?
But in short, what else would need work (read money) to make the car rev this much?
Please include all gearbox and drivetrain issues too
What needs upgrading in a 6A12 to rev harder?
Moderators: IMC, Club Staff
-
spetz
- Oldtimer
- Posts: 2915
- jedwabna poszewka promocja
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:00 pm
-
khunjeng
- Oldtimer
- Posts: 4455
- Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:00 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Victoria
I dont think its pointless, it will be expensive.
Take it to a decent tuner. They will have rebulit many engines and give you good advice. But expect that if it revs harder or you make it work harder it may have more frequent issues...
replace all the inetranls...but you need to do everything as the bit you dont replace will be your weakest link...
IN the end...what do you want to get? I car that revs to 10k? I would be more intrested in low down torque, improve that...get better acceleration and that would be nice.
Take it to a decent tuner. They will have rebulit many engines and give you good advice. But expect that if it revs harder or you make it work harder it may have more frequent issues...
replace all the inetranls...but you need to do everything as the bit you dont replace will be your weakest link...
IN the end...what do you want to get? I car that revs to 10k? I would be more intrested in low down torque, improve that...get better acceleration and that would be nice.
-
Bennoz
- National President
- Posts: 23676
- Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:00 pm
- Location: Sydney
- Contact:
-
spetz
- Oldtimer
- Posts: 2915
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:00 pm
This is a street car
I want it to put some decent times on the dragstrip though (12s would be nice)
How hard it revs isn't really an issue but of course small engine + a lot of rpm = good power
The 6A13 crank does not fit a 6A12 I found out and therefore the only way to go 2.5 now is from RPW. And if someone bought this rebuilt engine then for 10K that would be good, but as mentioned I called RPW and the price sky rocketed up
When you guys say EVERYTHING, please include exact parts and how hard it would be to find/make and price for them?
Lately also considering to just put a 63 into it
But the issue here is brand new engine Vs thrashed engine from a written off car. And that's why my old 6A12 was and it was stuffed
I want it to put some decent times on the dragstrip though (12s would be nice)
How hard it revs isn't really an issue but of course small engine + a lot of rpm = good power
The 6A13 crank does not fit a 6A12 I found out and therefore the only way to go 2.5 now is from RPW. And if someone bought this rebuilt engine then for 10K that would be good, but as mentioned I called RPW and the price sky rocketed up
When you guys say EVERYTHING, please include exact parts and how hard it would be to find/make and price for them?
Lately also considering to just put a 63 into it
But the issue here is brand new engine Vs thrashed engine from a written off car. And that's why my old 6A12 was and it was stuffed
-
khunjeng
- Oldtimer
- Posts: 4455
- Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:00 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Victoria
spetz wrote:This is a street car
I want it to put some decent times on the dragstrip though (12s would be nice)
How hard it revs isn't really an issue but of course small engine + a lot of rpm = good power
The 6A13 crank does not fit a 6A12 I found out and therefore the only way to go 2.5 now is from RPW. And if someone bought this rebuilt engine then for 10K that would be good, but as mentioned I called RPW and the price sky rocketed up
When you guys say EVERYTHING, please include exact parts and how hard it would be to find/make and price for them?
12s..good luck...hope u have lots a dollars.
Lately also considering to just put a 63 into it
But the issue here is brand new engine Vs thrashed engine from a written off car. And that's why my old 6A12 was and it was stuffed
-
droidy
- Grease Monkey
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:00 pm
I think there's no reason why you can't get a 6a12 to rev to 10,000 rpm. You'll need the forged internals, as you've already planned. There is a big difference between an f1 engine which revs to 18,000 rpm, and a 6a12 revving to 10,000 rpm. As you increase peak rpm on an internal combustion engine, the stresses on said engine increase exponentially. Ofcourse f1 engines are pulled down and rebuilt after every race, just like a lot of pro drag cars are rebuilt after only a relatively low number of runs. It's the nature of the sport, where budget is no object. It's like a pro tennis player changing raquets every set.
You're not in this situation though. Ask Charlie for confirmation, I don't think there are 'better' bearings for your crank or whatever. But having said that, lightweight pistons and strong rods, balanced crank- no probs.
And I wouldn't worrying about low end torque. It's a Mivec, not a 350 chev. Peak power always gonna be high up. Get you're gear ratios right and you gonna open up a can o' whoop%ss.
You're not in this situation though. Ask Charlie for confirmation, I don't think there are 'better' bearings for your crank or whatever. But having said that, lightweight pistons and strong rods, balanced crank- no probs.
And I wouldn't worrying about low end torque. It's a Mivec, not a 350 chev. Peak power always gonna be high up. Get you're gear ratios right and you gonna open up a can o' whoop%ss.
-
spetz
- Oldtimer
- Posts: 2915
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Droidy I never complained about low end power 
But I am wondering what the cost to the drivetrain would be to handle that much rpm.
Am I correct in assuming that I just need tougher synchros?
And then clutch, fly wheel etc would be ok?
Yeah unsure what to do with the valves
But the springs I assume just ask RPW for some heavy duty ones
But I am wondering what the cost to the drivetrain would be to handle that much rpm.
Am I correct in assuming that I just need tougher synchros?
And then clutch, fly wheel etc would be ok?
Yeah unsure what to do with the valves
But the springs I assume just ask RPW for some heavy duty ones
-
khunjeng
- Oldtimer
- Posts: 4455
- Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:00 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Victoria
I'm not comparing a 350 and this engine..droidy wrote:I think there's no reason why you can't get a 6a12 to rev to 10,000 rpm. You'll need the forged internals, as you've already planned. There is a big difference between an f1 engine which revs to 18,000 rpm, and a 6a12 revving to 10,000 rpm. As you increase peak rpm on an internal combustion engine, the stresses on said engine increase exponentially. Ofcourse f1 engines are pulled down and rebuilt after every race, just like a lot of pro drag cars are rebuilt after only a relatively low number of runs. It's the nature of the sport, where budget is no object. It's like a pro tennis player changing raquets every set.
You're not in this situation though. Ask Charlie for confirmation, I don't think there are 'better' bearings for your crank or whatever. But having said that, lightweight pistons and strong rods, balanced crank- no probs.
And I wouldn't worrying about low end torque. It's a Mivec, not a 350 chev. Peak power always gonna be high up. Get you're gear ratios right and you gonna open up a can o' whoop%ss.
just becuase peak power is high up is just the wank factor to brang to your mates about your awosme dyno result...which means nothing on the street or the track. So many times I have beaten the same cars running more HP than me...why? better average power...better low down response..
I will take a better overall response over max HP any day for the week.
-
Bennoz
- National President
- Posts: 23676
- Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:00 pm
- Location: Sydney
- Contact:
But are the cams going to produce any power at 10,000rpm? Has anyone tested that theory? Sure mivec dyno graphs just keep heading up in power to past the 8k mark, but what happens at 10k?? Every cam has a range & the hotter the cam the smaller the range.
None the less, there's a few things I'd be looking to go into.
Bottom end:
Crank - Knife Edging. Its a must if you are going to be slapping thru a pool of oil at 10k.
Crank - Cross Drilling. Drilling secondary oil galleries 90 degrees past the stock holes. This helps to distribute oil to the journals (big ends & mains) and will help prevent spun bearings.
Crank - Heat Treament. I'd be looking at something like Nitriding the crank. Nitriding is a chemical process that hardens the outer casing of the crank. The depth of hardening varies but it usually is from 8 - 12 thou (thousands of an inch) it will give the crank that extra durability - especially if you spin a bearing.
Crank - Lightening. If you want to spin it that quick, you want to pull as much weight off it as possible. You would much rather be spinning up 20 pounds of steel as opposed to 35 pounds... This should be done in conjunction with knife edging - and then of course balancing. If you are getting any harding treatment done to the crank, all the crank modifications (as far as metal removal & balancing) needs to occur before treating the steel.
Rods - Forged is obviously the way to go. If you cant afford to go to that extent, get your existing rods shot peened, lightened & balanced. Balanced with the crank as well.
Gudgeon Pins - High quality is a must here, you do not want a piston letting go at 10k. MPL make some pretty hardcore pins. Tapered pins are usually better than parallel pins as they weigh less. You can also get them cermaic coated if going the whole nine yards. They should also be balanced as a matching set.
Pistons - Again a forged component is a must. Also take care in choosing a quality piston, the better ones cater for thinner piston rings. The thinner the ring, the less resistance. This also leads to the question of what rings are available for this piston - that requires homework & not just looking up the rpw price list. You can find rings to fit any piston if you speak to the right people.
Rings - As touched on above. You may want to go the extreme of buying chrome moly rings. An extraordinarily hard coating that is put onto the ring for extreme durability. Again this is more of a race thing - if you are continually doing street driving with this type of piston ring, they have a habit of 'polishing' the bores. Ie when not driven hard all day, they wear the cross hatching in bores to a smooth mirror like finish. Thats bad - you need that cross hatching in the bore to enable oil to move up & down the cylinder wall. See the pic below, this is a block i built a few years back - note the angled markings across the bores. You need this for oil movement.
Oil movement - You may need to look into this. I'm not hugely familiar with the FTO system, but if such a thing exists as a high volume pump, them look into it. Hi flow generally means the pump impeller & surrounding cage is wider giving the larger pumping volume. You may also want to check out the sump pickup point. The optimal pick up point is normally towards the centre of the oil reservoir - ie in the middle of the sump. Another thing to investigate could possibly be the sump itself. Could the FTO benefit from a larger volume sump? Could the FTO benefit from a 'baffled' sump - ie mesh welded into the sump to reduce 'sloshing' of oil from side to side. Food for thought anyway.
Thats all I can think of now, Im tired & gonna hit the hay. I'll start on the top end & other bits for you tomorrow
None the less, there's a few things I'd be looking to go into.
Bottom end:
Crank - Knife Edging. Its a must if you are going to be slapping thru a pool of oil at 10k.
Crank - Cross Drilling. Drilling secondary oil galleries 90 degrees past the stock holes. This helps to distribute oil to the journals (big ends & mains) and will help prevent spun bearings.
Crank - Heat Treament. I'd be looking at something like Nitriding the crank. Nitriding is a chemical process that hardens the outer casing of the crank. The depth of hardening varies but it usually is from 8 - 12 thou (thousands of an inch) it will give the crank that extra durability - especially if you spin a bearing.
Crank - Lightening. If you want to spin it that quick, you want to pull as much weight off it as possible. You would much rather be spinning up 20 pounds of steel as opposed to 35 pounds... This should be done in conjunction with knife edging - and then of course balancing. If you are getting any harding treatment done to the crank, all the crank modifications (as far as metal removal & balancing) needs to occur before treating the steel.
Rods - Forged is obviously the way to go. If you cant afford to go to that extent, get your existing rods shot peened, lightened & balanced. Balanced with the crank as well.
Gudgeon Pins - High quality is a must here, you do not want a piston letting go at 10k. MPL make some pretty hardcore pins. Tapered pins are usually better than parallel pins as they weigh less. You can also get them cermaic coated if going the whole nine yards. They should also be balanced as a matching set.
Pistons - Again a forged component is a must. Also take care in choosing a quality piston, the better ones cater for thinner piston rings. The thinner the ring, the less resistance. This also leads to the question of what rings are available for this piston - that requires homework & not just looking up the rpw price list. You can find rings to fit any piston if you speak to the right people.
Rings - As touched on above. You may want to go the extreme of buying chrome moly rings. An extraordinarily hard coating that is put onto the ring for extreme durability. Again this is more of a race thing - if you are continually doing street driving with this type of piston ring, they have a habit of 'polishing' the bores. Ie when not driven hard all day, they wear the cross hatching in bores to a smooth mirror like finish. Thats bad - you need that cross hatching in the bore to enable oil to move up & down the cylinder wall. See the pic below, this is a block i built a few years back - note the angled markings across the bores. You need this for oil movement.
Oil movement - You may need to look into this. I'm not hugely familiar with the FTO system, but if such a thing exists as a high volume pump, them look into it. Hi flow generally means the pump impeller & surrounding cage is wider giving the larger pumping volume. You may also want to check out the sump pickup point. The optimal pick up point is normally towards the centre of the oil reservoir - ie in the middle of the sump. Another thing to investigate could possibly be the sump itself. Could the FTO benefit from a larger volume sump? Could the FTO benefit from a 'baffled' sump - ie mesh welded into the sump to reduce 'sloshing' of oil from side to side. Food for thought anyway.
Thats all I can think of now, Im tired & gonna hit the hay. I'll start on the top end & other bits for you tomorrow
-
spetz
- Oldtimer
- Posts: 2915
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:00 pm
hmmm
Thanks heaps for that great info!
But this is kind of turning me off from doing this...
Why did you specify nitriding the crank and not cryo'ing? I thought cryo'ing it makes it stronger over all?
You think the piston pins need changing? That's not much of an issue though as with custom rods/pistons the pins are about $50 each
Oil pump, I heard that you can put or take out a washer from somewhere on the pump which is spring loaded to raise the actual oil pressure
Sump, I was thinking of a dry sump but unsure of how much this costs, I heard a lot?
oh man that money
On top of the the near 9K I spent on putting this engine in, add the rebuild and the extra little bits, now all this...
Did I hear 4G63???
Thanks heaps for that great info!
But this is kind of turning me off from doing this...
Why did you specify nitriding the crank and not cryo'ing? I thought cryo'ing it makes it stronger over all?
You think the piston pins need changing? That's not much of an issue though as with custom rods/pistons the pins are about $50 each
Oil pump, I heard that you can put or take out a washer from somewhere on the pump which is spring loaded to raise the actual oil pressure
Sump, I was thinking of a dry sump but unsure of how much this costs, I heard a lot?
oh man that money
On top of the the near 9K I spent on putting this engine in, add the rebuild and the extra little bits, now all this...
Did I hear 4G63???
-
spetz
- Oldtimer
- Posts: 2915
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:00 pm
I forgot to mention
After you analyse what needs doing in the head, can you also go through to drivetrain?
The initial project involved a DC5R 6 speed gearbox (I already have the gearbox). What would that need to handle high rpm?
PS. When I say 10K rpm that's a rounded figure. Realistically I'd probably want peak power in the low 9000's and cut out around 9500rpm
But geez...
After you analyse what needs doing in the head, can you also go through to drivetrain?
The initial project involved a DC5R 6 speed gearbox (I already have the gearbox). What would that need to handle high rpm?
PS. When I say 10K rpm that's a rounded figure. Realistically I'd probably want peak power in the low 9000's and cut out around 9500rpm
But geez...
-
Bennoz
- National President
- Posts: 23676
- Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:00 pm
- Location: Sydney
- Contact:
-
Bennoz
- National President
- Posts: 23676
- Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:00 pm
- Location: Sydney
- Contact:
-
Bennoz
- National President
- Posts: 23676
- Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:00 pm
- Location: Sydney
- Contact:
Sorry the 6k includes the internals in that block.
Its been offset bored from 1.275ltr to 1.4ltr. Because we couldn't directly bore out the 1 & 4 cylinders (they would have been to close to 2 &3 cylinders) we had to offset bore them outward towards the edges of the block. In doing so we ran into a water gallery in No 4 cylinder & had to have it sleeved & rebored.
The inside of the block itself (the non bore surfaces) were deburred & smoothed (sorta like grinding smooth any factory casting metal edges) and then those surfaces were coated with hi-slip compound (cant remember the name for the life of me.) That gave the inside of the block a very smooth & slippery finish that allowed the oil to drop back down into the sump & g/box faster than normal. Also because we took so much metal out of the block by boring so big, the block is then subject to 'block flex' at high torque points - ie the whole block flexes & twists. So we had to internal brace it with steel rods. The block was then tunnel bored (along the main bearing journal points) to ensure it was perfectly straight. High pressure welsh plugs were put into the water gallery & the oil galleries were also gound smooth & coated with the low friction coating.
The pistons were a lightweight Japanese alloy unit made by Omega. They are a 3 ring piston & almost a flat top. Coupled with 19cc volume cylinder head chambers it gives it around 13:1 compression. The rods are an AEG521 steel unit that were lightened, balanced & shot peened. The crank in there was a master peice. EN40B steel (which is the dogs danglies) lightened, wedged, cross drilled, balanced, crack tested, & nitrided. You cant really see it in the pic, but the nitriding gives it a cool blue sort of finish in the right light. You mention cry-oing earlier, that works on the same priciple as nitriding. It gives the entire crank a hardened outer casing all over. Its a more modern method than nitriding.
The timing gear you can see on the right is a double row vernier chain setup. Originally we went with a dry belt setup (similar to FTO) but the sheer torque of the motor (coupled with an extremely snappy rev tendency thanks to lightweight crank & flywheel) we kept shredding the belts - so we went to chain drive for strength... noisier, but stronger.
Its been offset bored from 1.275ltr to 1.4ltr. Because we couldn't directly bore out the 1 & 4 cylinders (they would have been to close to 2 &3 cylinders) we had to offset bore them outward towards the edges of the block. In doing so we ran into a water gallery in No 4 cylinder & had to have it sleeved & rebored.
The inside of the block itself (the non bore surfaces) were deburred & smoothed (sorta like grinding smooth any factory casting metal edges) and then those surfaces were coated with hi-slip compound (cant remember the name for the life of me.) That gave the inside of the block a very smooth & slippery finish that allowed the oil to drop back down into the sump & g/box faster than normal. Also because we took so much metal out of the block by boring so big, the block is then subject to 'block flex' at high torque points - ie the whole block flexes & twists. So we had to internal brace it with steel rods. The block was then tunnel bored (along the main bearing journal points) to ensure it was perfectly straight. High pressure welsh plugs were put into the water gallery & the oil galleries were also gound smooth & coated with the low friction coating.
The pistons were a lightweight Japanese alloy unit made by Omega. They are a 3 ring piston & almost a flat top. Coupled with 19cc volume cylinder head chambers it gives it around 13:1 compression. The rods are an AEG521 steel unit that were lightened, balanced & shot peened. The crank in there was a master peice. EN40B steel (which is the dogs danglies) lightened, wedged, cross drilled, balanced, crack tested, & nitrided. You cant really see it in the pic, but the nitriding gives it a cool blue sort of finish in the right light. You mention cry-oing earlier, that works on the same priciple as nitriding. It gives the entire crank a hardened outer casing all over. Its a more modern method than nitriding.
The timing gear you can see on the right is a double row vernier chain setup. Originally we went with a dry belt setup (similar to FTO) but the sheer torque of the motor (coupled with an extremely snappy rev tendency thanks to lightweight crank & flywheel) we kept shredding the belts - so we went to chain drive for strength... noisier, but stronger.