Tappets/valve train/top end - here we go again....

mrx · Post by **mrx** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:26 pm

Right. Meticulously went through and re-set the tappets as per the engine manual instructions. Double checked all the gaps before putting it all back together again. Start the car - and they sound worse than they did before!!!

So frustrating, cannot think why this would be.

Will be doing an oil flush and change shortly, so will see if that helps, but failing that, I have no idea.

If the gaps are too small or big, are they going to sound much the same? Also, how difficult should it be to get the feeler gauge between the cam lobe and the roller? They are fairly tight, but it does go in without too much effort and you can move them around.

Any feedback much appreciated.

Nacho · Post by **Nacho** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:35 pm

Change the oil to a thinner oil first and see what the result is.

mrx · Post by **mrx** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:39 pm

Yeah - I was thinking that. I have no idea what oil is in there (done by mechanics during major service) but pretty sure it's like a 15-50 or something. Will change to a 0-40 and see how that goes.

It is more chattery than ticking like "normal" tappet noise though.

Will see how it goes.

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:12 pm

use a good oil filter, not a Ryco piece of crap - less pressure drop will help the tappet noise seen a few tests on Coopers but the OEM versions of all the Jap cars have seen good results, buy a Coopers or Mitsi OEM was like $9 a week ago. 0W40 M1 would be an ok choice. Failing that use Motul 300V or Redline if u have the cash.. I use a 5W30..have next to no tappet noise..only at idel you might hear them a bit...

My idle pully is noisy...needs to be replaced...actually makes u think its the tappets...buts its the pully...check them also.

Post by **Bennoz** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:59 am

Did you adjust them when the motor was warm or cold Shaun?

mrx · Post by **mrx** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:26 pm

Cold. 0.1 inlet, 0.13 exhaust.

Oil pressure could be something to look at, and doing an oil change soon so will check that out too (filter I mean).

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:22 pm

We're having the same discussion on and off on the UK forum as well. So far we have

1. Hydraulic lifters - apparently there are about three per camshaft for some reason I still dont understand

2. Header gasket leak - gives you a ticking type noise.

3. My alternator was making a noise and some WD40 quietened it as did a belt change

4. Injectors can make more noise than you would expect.

5. A rattle snake has hidden in your engine bay (No- that one wasn't really discussed

)

HTH

Arashi

mrx · Post by **mrx** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:39 pm

Well, I think I can rule out number 5

It is also not a head gasket leak, and not hydraulic lifters (MIVEC).

Warming to the oil pressure possibility, but unsure of that too.

Don't really feel like adjusting them again, but will do it if I have too.

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:25 pm

mrx wrote:Well, I think I can rule out number 5

It is also not a head gasket leak, and not hydraulic lifters (MIVEC).

Warming to the oil pressure possibility, but unsure of that too.

Don't really feel like adjusting them again, but will do it if I have too.

the oil filter has a big effect on the tappet noise..I have a test somewhere but can't find it. Basically this guy in the us has a car with a similar issue as the FTO and he tested numerous filters for pressure, flow, effiency and "noise" of the tappets. The cooper and OEM ones worked well. Also the M1 filter but thats hard to get here.

Also Mitsi use a new Denso MZ690116 in their EVOs..you can get the "short" equiv. for the FTO...really good construction. I bought a new OEM recently...and it looks the goods.

the Ryco worked really bad in all tests which has been repeated a number of times in a number of forums I had read.

mxysxy · Post by **mxysxy** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:54 am

so, where do we get these fancy filters from?
product code?

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:08 am

mrx wrote:Well, I think I can rule out number 5

It is also not a head gasket leak, and not hydraulic lifters (MIVEC).

I may have had a language failure across the world here. I meant the exhaust manifold gasket, not the head gasket. I was trying to be fancy as I thought you guys called them "headers"

There are also, much to my surprise hydraulic lifters even in the MIVEC engine, see here at the bottom of the page.

Arashi

mrx · Post by **mrx** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:17 am

Storm wrote: I may have had a language failure across the world here. I meant the exhaust manifold gasket, not the head gasket. I was trying to be fancy as I thought you guys called them "headers"

There are also, much to my surprise hydraulic lifters even in the MIVEC engine, see here at the bottom of the page.

Arashi

Ah - in my tired state I just read that as 'head gasket' but upon re-reading it in the morning I can see what you actually typed

I have noticed those little hydraulic thingies in there (I think you will find this is what they are actually called

), but were not aware they were lifters too! Will investigate this possibility aswell. I have a "spare" engine sitting around (and no idea what to do with it, but that is another story - and yes, it will need a rebuild) so might just get these out of that one, clean them up, and put them in the engine in the car.

Combine with oil change, new OEM filter and see what the result is. May even put an injector cleaner into the fuel to test that theory aswell.

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:40 am

mxysxy wrote:so, where do we get these fancy filters from?
product code?

OEM. Mitis only stock 2 types, fat and thin - mz690070 its not too bad as few ppl have pulled it apart and reckon its ok from their EVO..thats uses the fat version. Else go look for a Coopers equiv. which should have a similar number as the ryco (Z411 I think but do a search) although I never have tried. It might not fix your problem, but its a good start to ensure u have decent oil pressure and you filter flow/filtering is good.

If u have oil pressure guage see what happens. I have no def. answer but some filters can get stuck in bypass and hence drop you pressure...this is common when using a filter thats not spe'd right. THats why i say use a OEM one...just to keep it simple.

Post by **Bennoz** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:16 am

Im investigating for you Shaun. Am seeing my mechanic this arvo as he's done plenty of these.

I fail to see how a change of oil or oil filter is going to fix a tappet noise problem.... It will only disguise it at best. Something is making a ticking noise because there is a problem - we need to identify what that part is.

Think of the scenario:
The car pulled 108kw on the dyno - I dont think there is a oil pressure problem
The tappets sounded better before adjustment - meaning there may have a issue with the technique used to adjust them
There are a number of other things in a Mivec head that can go tap, tap, tap. Such as worn rocker assembly bushes, the hydraulic tappet stubs (as mentioned above,) missing tappet collets, a possible exhaust leak... the list is endless - but as they were better before adjustment, I am leaning to incorrect technique used to adjust them.

akuma3 · Post by **akuma3** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:14 pm

I still haven't got time and someone close to where i live to give to adjust, wanna adjust mine long time ago

mrx · Post by **mrx** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:24 pm

Yeah, i mean you could be right of course! It could just be me

But I will investigate these other things aswell. It is at idle where it is "rattling", and there is some obvious taping above that point.

Ben - if you could get some tips or feedback on anything in particular which you can do wrong, then let me know of course.

but reading through the forums on the UK, seems there may be some other issues floating around in our cars too (but that may or may not apply to me).

Will probably get a chance on Saturday to have another look, so if you could let me know anything by then it would be much appreciated.

mrx · Post by **mrx** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:20 pm

How about something like the cam springs aswell? If there was one or more of these that weren't "springing" then surely this would be manifesting itself in a similar way? I just wacked the rocker cover off the engine in the garage, and a couple of them were really hard to move. (And no, they weren't the ones that the valve was open either.

)

I will also check the cam followers (rollers) to make sure they are all ok. Will re-check all the tappet gaps while I am at it.

Has anyone used one of those top-end treatment / flush before? Would it be recommended? This is an engine that was sitting around in a half cut for a while so just wondering if something like that might be worth looking at.

bigpitty1 · Post by **bigpitty1** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:07 pm

maybe one of the tappet adjuster bit is broken, that little plastic crown that holds the floating end bit has broken.

I replace one of mine when I changed the timing belt.

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:46 pm

Bennoz wrote:Im investigating for you Shaun. Am seeing my mechanic this arvo as he's done plenty of these.

I fail to see how a change of oil or oil filter is going to fix a tappet noise problem.... It will only disguise it at best. Something is making a ticking noise because there is a problem - we need to identify what that part is.

Think of the scenario:
The car pulled 108kw on the dyno - I dont think there is a oil pressure problem
The tappets sounded better before adjustment - meaning there may have a issue with the technique used to adjust them
There are a number of other things in a Mivec head that can go tap, tap, tap. Such as worn rocker assembly bushes, the hydraulic tappet stubs (as mentioned above,) missing tappet collets, a possible exhaust leak... the list is endless - but as they were better before adjustment, I am leaning to incorrect technique used to adjust them.

tappet or lifter noise is assosiated with the oil passage being blocked with crap or not getting enough oil in cos its too thick.. i.e. cold start. At op temp a thicker oil will help rasie oil pressure a lot while the right filter can also help raise it a few psi if its designed correctly. But the main benifit is moving forward and helping the oil stay clean so the lifters dont get clogged again, this helps if u have a good filter - if u think they are all the same u have been mislead.

however if your adjustment is way off then its probably not going to do anything. You need to start with a good base.

payaya · Post by **payaya** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:26 pm

Storm wrote:We're having the same discussion on and off on the UK forum as well. So far we have

1. Hydraulic lifters - apparently there are about three per camshaft for some reason I still dont understand

2. Header gasket leak - gives you a ticking type noise.

3. My alternator was making a noise and some WD40 quietened it as did a belt change

4. Injectors can make more noise than you would expect.

5. A rattle snake has hidden in your engine bay (No- that one wasn't really discussed )

HTH

Arashi

FTO is 24 valve, 4 cams, so 6 lifters per camshaft. 1 lifter per valve. Injectors do tap but not enough for you to notice it without having your head next to them.

Why not change the lifters??? Could be worn out.