Suspension + Handling

[Boris]

I don't know much about the suspension components and their effects, so I was wondering, how would you go about making the understeer less and the oversteer more?

I don't want a complete turn around, I just want to feel a bit more oversteer sometimes, if you know what i mean.

I read on these forums that you should stiffen the back? How would you go about that? get new springs/shocks? etc?

My back I think is pretty stiff, compared to my front
I think I have stock setup, but I have a rear cusco strut bar.

What kinda prices am I looking at? Thanx

[payaya]

so left foot braking induces oversteer. The handbrake is alright as well

but being FWD the usual tendacy is to understeer.

[Chiangstar]

get a whiteline rear swaybar.... youll love it

i cant remember how much it is but look at the whiteline website and itll tell you

[G1]

yeah either an uprated/adjustable rear swaybar, or getting adjustable shocks and setting the rear ones to the stiffest and playing with it from there, or both

i just have my rear shocks set to stiffest, and i am happy with the way my car turns in, so i dont think i'll get a rear swaybar.

[Boris]

What bout the settings for the front? The stock one at the moment is pretty sloppy.

Say by buying adjustable suspension front & back, I put the back to the hardest, do I leave the front as easy as possible? Or is this all about playing around and findind a good balance your self?

What brand do you reccomend that wount cost and arm and a leg, that are still quality... whiteline?

[G1]

yeah this has all been covered before, you answered your own question.

options are

- get konis fitted through a suspension specialist (they will need to look at your current shocks and match them up)
- get whiteline off the shelf (which are konis anyway)
- get kyb off the shelf

[ruchi]

My first question is why do you want to do this? As a general rule, a car which oversteers is more dangerous and this is why auto manufacturers deliberatly design cars to understeer instead.

There are three main factors that help determine the attitude of a vehicle:
1) The setup of the car
2) The way it is driven
3) The environmental conditions

Alter any one of the above and the vehicle will respond differently.

Personally, I would suggest you set up your cars suspension for how you drive 90% of the time, then learn how to drive the car for the other 10% and lastly only drive that way when the environmental conditions are right.

Even with the standard setup, given the right driving style or environmental conditions, you can get the FTO to understeer or oversteer or avoid both.

BTW, I'm not saying "don't do this", rather I'm saying there's more to this than just the car's setup.

[G1]

yeah thats the reason i wanted to stay away from the swaybar as i think i have the right balance of understeer/oversteer with just the stiffer shocks/springs.. ive once been in an accident where my tail slid out, so i am very weary about inducing too much oversteer

[Boris]

Thanks G1, I think when i can afford i might get the KYB or the Whiteline ones. Whiteline has different packages for the fto, but no prices yet in the catalogue.

My first question is why do you want to do this? As a general rule, a car which oversteers is more dangerous and this is why auto manufacturers deliberatly design cars to understeer instead.

What manufacturers deliberatly do isn't always the best. lol.
The reason why I want more oversteer is because,

1) I like it, it's fun when you know how to control it.
2) Sick of understeer.

Even with the standard setup, given the right driving style or environmental conditions, you can get the FTO to understeer or oversteer or avoid both.

Yess, I understand...

I plan to take this car to the track, sometime when ever you guys go next and it would be nicer to have a bit more oversteer. That's all. Simple.

Which setup would be faster around the corners do you guys think? Oversteer or Understeer or a nice balance? (I'm after a better balance)

BTW, I'm not saying "don't do this", rather I'm saying there's more to this than just the car's setup.

I know, Driving skills is important too...
FTO Australia really should get together for some driver training, on tracks or something... ummm...

[ruchi]

What the manufacturers do is normally "best" for the general public and for safety, because "safety" sells. What I suggest you do, and most people who alter their suspension is optimise it for how you drive the majority of the time not for how you drive on the odd occaision.

Both oversteer and understeer = loss of traction, which as a general rule you don't want on a race track as you'll loose both speed and control and also wear your tyres out quicker. Neutral is the best setting, then use your driving skills to control it. If you are going to lean one way or another, lean towards understeer as tracks are generally setup with run-offs if you miss the corner. Whereas if you oversteer, you'll end up spinning around in the middle of the track and will get collected by everyone who is behind you.

A more important factor on the track will be your camber setup.

Driving skill and understanding your car and it's limits are the most important thing and much more valuable than upgraded suspension.

[FTO338]

Lots of manufacturer that i'm aware of actually have their products (cars) set to comfort, cause thats the thing you feel when you test drive it.

A good example is tyres pressure, which was discussed at the other post.

http://www.ftoaustralia.com/modules.php ... e+pressure

[Jeff]

Dear Boris,
I`ve been through the whole setup as I do trackdays and the FTO certainly sufferers from understeer. The first and most expensive option is a suspension specialist. I highly recomend Fulcrum at Moorooka (Bris). I had adjustable konis put on new bushes, and most importantly had the camber adjusted. This greatly improved the handling and track times. I also put on a front and rear strut brace. This again helped handling alittle, with the car turning a little tighter. With the koni`s I have the front fully soft and the rears 1 turn tight. The rears are apain to adjust as you have to pull the car apart, but the front ones you can adjust via the top of the strut, Very easy to dial up.
After all this the car was a lot faster and handled a lot better (safer), but alas like you I prefere a little oversteer. If you do any motorkanas, the understeer will kill you. also on the track having the car go straight ahead is a little scary.
So I upgraded my rear swaybar to the whiteline Heavy Duty adjustable. So far I have never needed to adjust up the bar as it is perfect. I have managed to stiffen the rear and eleiminate the understeer. 2 weeks ago I toke it arround Willowbank, and the feeling of sideways drift when entering a corner too fast is great. No understeer or oversteer, but neutral. A great feeling on the track and I ran my quickest times.
Hope this helps.
Jeff

[G1]

yes i second that camber notion, my camber settings at -1 deg each side at the front did wonders for handling

i think also that you should not skimp on tyres, get some decent ones before spending too much on the suspension. you want the tyres to be the limiting factor and not your suspension. i would spend money on suspension with money left over after getting decent tyres first. - thats if you are gonna push your car near its limits

i personally think that brakes and tyres are the most important upgrades on your car - else dont drive your car too hard

[Boris]

Thanks guys!
I think I understand now... I'm sure to have more little questions in the future

[RallyMad]

HI Jeff, what suspension have you got? Koni adjustable shocks? With adjustable damper, height? If so what springs are you running? Or are they full coilovers?

[RichardH]

I don't know much about the suspension components and their effects, so I was wondering, how would you go about making the understeer less and the oversteer more?

I don't want a complete turn around, I just want to feel a bit more oversteer sometimes, if you know what i mean.

I read on these forums that you should stiffen the back? How would you go about that? get new springs/shocks? etc?

My back I think is pretty stiff, compared to my front
I think I have stock setup, but I have a rear cusco strut bar.

What kinda prices am I looking at? Thanx

I've done two years of motorkhana in the FTO, and have it set up very nicely. It cost a bit, and the more performance driving you do, the more it seems you can simply drive around specific cars' handling traits! I'd suggest you get yourself some track time, and first look with an open mind at your driving... How your inputs, positioning, speed and vision set up the car, and what happens when you adjust something in the way you drive. Basically, it's a lot cheaper and quicker to change your driving in a fixed setup car than it is to change the car around your fixed driving!

And without that flexibility, you'll likely find another very interesting thing... that you'll "correct out" a vehicle handling change, and end up with the same problem, but at a faster speed. Like, if you naturally go into a corner a bit too hot, you'll understeer, and no be able to put power down as you come out until very late. Then, spend 2 grand on the car to reduce understeer. And what'll you do? You'll go into that corner a little hotter, as the car feels like it can take it a little faster, and you'll wash out with understeer again, and not be able to put power down etc. etc. And there you are, a bit poorer, a bit faster, but cursing the same issue you were before, hehe.

Having said that, spending money on cars is fun. Especially when you can feel the difference on a track. Lotsa fun. So here's my setup...

- Tokico Edusa adjustable dampers (from http://www.checkerflag.co.jp ).
- King Springs all round. Front: KCFL26. Rear: KCRL46HD.
- Front and rear strut braces.
- Camber adjustment bolts on front suspension.
- Pair of extra castor poly bushes on front suspension.
- Competition tyres (Toyo Trampio R1-R on stock GPX rims).

That makes for a tremendously well set up little FWD track car.

Then spend up on some really great brake pads. Currently on Pagid Blue 4-2, on DBA slotted rotors.

Err, now I start to see why my wife tells me I spend too much money on my car. This is over four years, though, so what's she upset about? hehe.

Oh, and rip out everything non-essential for track days (spare tyre, jack, boot floor, gold fillings, watch, small change, underpants).

- Rich