Cam Gear and Sensor Talk

[Valandis91]

ok im in the midst of making my mechanics chuck on my verniers for no charge cos theyre too dumb to find out how to do it the last time. BUT we need to sus it out first.

Do the Mivec and Non mivec Cam Gears Differ?

Do the cam angle sensor adaptors differ either?

After talking to them today they claimed that the cam angle sensor was different on my mivec, Gears and sensor from a GR. and that even adjusting the sensor the adjustment they could get wasnt enough to allow the sensor reading to be in line with what it was meant to be.

in this post and pic below shows the cam gear in question as well as a rant from bennoz pulled from my thread.

i really want to put these on we just have to know what went wrong and blame them for their inferior knowledge so they put them on free or reduced charge which would be awesome!

thank you guys

I still fear for you at that mechanic

Take a close look a this picture:



Why is the inlet cam (left) is fully retarded when the exhaust cam (right) looks to be set around 0???

All your cams should be set at 0 to start with. Its no wonder the bloody thing wont run properly, you may as well have got the timing belt off by 2 teeth...

I hope you realise too, that if they put the stock cam gears on, that means the entire timing assembly has to come off again & cam belt has to be reset again... there's a good 4 hours worth of work in that... at least.

[Bennoz]

Im scared Please bring it to Sydney!

[aza013]

Im scared Please bring it to Sydney!

I have to agree, all the money you have put into this it would break your heart to see it go bang if they f**k up.

[Valandis91]

can you answer any of the questions ben?

trust me if i had the coin to be able to ship it over trust me i would...

looking at the pics i have. i have one with verniers on and one without.

both showing camshaft postition it obvious the camshaft is retarded as per the vernier so its techinically in the right place BUT could it be the cam angle sensor was put on thee wrong way around or in the wrong spot?
which would cause the readings to be out?

[Valandis91]

Compare these two.



and



See how the Gear Sensor Adaptor bracket thingy is in a different place?

[Valandis91]

AHA! I got it!

yes i am talking to myself in this thread but meh. ANYWAYS

after thorough analysisof the cam gears im holding right now and pictures i have it seems that they have fucked up hence i get them put on for free WIN!

Here's what happened. The cam wheels are off a GR which have a different cam angle sensor. its smaller.

Since they took off my stock cam gears and realised the sensor is different they tried to get it to work by playing with the timing on the cam gear. now obviously this doesnt change the fact that the sensor is in the wrong position so it wont fire correctly cos the ecu will always think its in a different position to where it is. what they shouldve done is realise this and fix it but they didnt.

what do you guys think of my findings?

This is why the verniers didnt work. They are such a fail cant wait to go in on monday and show them the pictures. Now they have to take off and put of the cam gears for free woo!

[Bennoz]

Here's what I think they've done.

The gears themselves are identical from Mivec to Non Mivec. Same amount of teeth & everything, the only difference between
mivec & non mivec, is that the gear with the cam angles sensor pickup plate goes in a different spot. On the non mivec, the cam
angle sensor is behind the front (exhuast) cam wheel, on mivec its behind the second (inlet) as per your pictures. I've checked &
doubled checks CAPS to confirm.

Now that sensor plate is held onto the gear by 4 screws (as you can see on the cam wheel left of screen.)
The plate has 4 tabs on it, that when rotated, are picked up by the cam angle sensor. 1 out the 4 tabs is larger
than the others - this is to tell the cam angle sensor that the motor is at TPC (Top Dead Centre)

Here's an (poor) example of what that plate looks like:



I don't think they had that plate in the correct location when timing the motor.
Set the motor to TDC, zero the vernier timing, align the gear & plate assembly so that the large tab is over the cam angle sensor - put timing belt on.

[Valandis91]

yeah i thought thats how it worked. where exactly iis the cam angle sensor or is it easy to see when the gear wheels are off?

i didnt think from the beginning that.

heres a pic of the gear in question on the back



the tab on the inner side of the ring is towards the bottom of the pic. not a clear pic if u cant see it ill take a better one.

anyways do you think the position for this differs between the two adaptor plates?

in other words will the gear need modifying?

[Bennoz]

yeah i thought thats how it worked. where exactly iis the cam angle sensor or is it easy to see when the gear wheels are off?

i didnt think from the beginning that.

heres a pic of the gear in question on the back



the tab on the inner side of the ring is towards the bottom of the pic. not a clear pic if you cant see it ill take a better one.

anyways do you think the position for this differs between the two adaptor plates?

in other words will the gear need modifying?

Yeah the cam angle sensor mounts to the head (behind the cam wheel.)

Not sure sure what you mean by tab, a better pic would be good.

From what I can see there, there are 4 screw holes the plate can bolt to, in other words a 1 in 4 chance of getting it right. Ie 90, 180 or 270 degrees out.

And you say you have to 2 adaptor plates? Again, according to CAPS, they are the same plate. I think its just getting it screwed on in the right place (the 1 in 4 chance..)

[Valandis91]

in your picture you have drawn in the hole in the middle the little tab that sticks out.

|_| like that on the inside of the hold in the middle of the plate.

there is a groove for that to go into on the back of the gear

so how would there be a one in 4 chance? although that does sound more likely.

ill take a better pic later on a post it up for you

strange how caps say they are the same.

they even look different...

[Bennoz]

That drawing I put up is not an FTO plate.

Yeah pop some pics up of the 2 different plates.

[Valandis91]

That drawing I put up is not an FTO plate.

Yeah pop some pics up of the 2 different plates.

i know that but its fairly similar just a flat copy.

The two pics below are pics of the cam gear plate that came with the verniers off the GR



This is the end that sits in the vernier



this is a better picture of the inside of the pully where the plate fits into



This is the pulley with the plate sitting in the position it fits into. Notice how the tabs dont stick out



Now this is the verniers from the back shoowing the existing plate connected to it. see how the tabs stick out and over the edge of the cam wheels



and this is a pic of the stock cam wheel with the plate in the correct position.

[Bennoz]

Ahhhh, I see.

Ok, now what we need is a pic of the back of a stock cam gear.

[SchumieFan]

yup.... this is why i dont want another FTO

memories

[Valandis91]

Ahhhh, I see.

Ok, now what we need is a pic of the back of a stock cam gear.

yeah i know.

is it easy to take the cam gear covers off?

cos i dont have one unfortunately! or would i have to pull the whole gear off?

[SchumieFan]

theres a bolt wayyyyyyyyy down the bottom that goes through the middle of the belt, if youve got kiddie fingers youll be right.... the others are easy

[Bennoz]

Hey Aza, have you still got half that old Mivec engine in peices? Any chance we could get a pic of the cam gear with the sensor plate on it

[aza013]

I don't have the heads any more but I do still have the cam gears, if that helps?

[Bennoz]

I don't have the heads any more but I do still have the cam gears, if that helps?

Yep! You should see 1 of the 4 has the plate pictured above. If we could get a shot of the back of it, that'd be tops.

[Valandis91]

I don't have the heads any more but I do still have the cam gears, if that helps?

YES! Aza that would be amazing.

and show where TDC is if possible as well and the angles or something to makee it easier to compare