LSD

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RallyMad
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LSD

Post by RallyMad »

Seems the LSD question has come up again. I'm stil confused about this so thought it would be a good idea to centralise the info and figure out exactly what is going on.

First of all, not including that you may have a aftermarket LSD I believe the old jack it up and spin a wheel does not tell you nothing.

Second I think the FTO's came with 2 diffs, a viscous LSD in the car of the year and early GPvR and then the facelift GPvR have a torque sensitive LSD. I know it is the diff mitsubishi Australia used the the Ralliart Magnas. Some info that I've found on this:

Manual Transmission


The big news for the manual transmission is the addition of a torque-sensitive limited slip differential (LSD).


As the 3.5 litre engine is one of the largest capacity FWDs, the LSD, combined with the grippy Pirellis, is considered a key factor in harnessing the performance gains achieved and elevating the driving wheels' adhesion-breaking torque to way beyond that of normal FWD or RWD passenger cars. A Limited Slip Differential was the logical choice for manual variants, while Mitsubishi's acclaimed Traction and Trace Control system is fitted to automatic variants.


The LSD selected is a torque sensing helical gear differential, as it:


-enables more powerful traction in response to accelerator fluctuations compared to a speed-sensitive viscous coupling type LSD,

-gives superior response to accelerator fluctuations compared to regular mechanical LSDs, and

-maintains drive even if one wheel experiences significant loss of traction.


The result is torque transfer to the road (even with different left/right wheel grip), even breakaway and the ability to accelerate hard from tight corners. The device gives up to 2.25 times torque difference between the driving wheels.

From: http://www.supercars.net/cars/2363.html

With this ability to transfer 2.25 times the torque to the wheel with the most traction I really don't think spinning a wheel when jacked up proves anything.

A little more info I've found is this:
The Torsen (from Torque Sensing) works as an open differential when the amount of torque going to each wheel is equal. As soon as one wheel starts to lose traction, the difference in torque causes the gears in the Torsen differential to bind together. The design of the gears in the differential determines the torque bias ratio. For instance, if a particular Torsen differential is designed with a 5:1 bias ratio, it is capable of applying up to five times more torque to the wheel that has good traction.

I've called a few gearbox specialists today who have sworn to me that what I am trying to describe as a Torque sensing LSD would be a mechanical diff and not viscous 8O

And that without having the diff out there is no way to effective test the diff. They did confirm what I had always thought about having the car jacked up and spinning a wheel in that without any load on the diff this doesn't really prove anything.

For the record with my Version R in nuetral the other wheel spins in the opposite direction, when I gear the spin together but it is very hard to make them turn. (I think this is what I8AFRE was saying in AMACHA's thread) I'm not saying this is correct, my diff may be past it. I've never heard another version R owners experiences with this.

Despite that though I don't think this proves anything. The specialists told me that you can't really test anything with the diff without it out of the gearbox and on a bench, The only reccomendation they could give me was to find a bit of wet grass, one wheel on the grass, the other on the bitumen then pull away quickly, if the wheel on the grass spins and you go nowhere, it's an open diff. If you get good drive and pull away cleanly you've got a LSD

PLEASE NOTE. I don't reccommend doing this on a public road and you would be in big trouble with the police for doing this sort of thing on a public road, I take no responsibilty for anyone trying this and getting into trouble or breaking something.

.. But officer I was only trying to test my diff, I wasn't doing a burnout......... :D
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Bennoz
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Post by Bennoz »

A Torsen diff is a mechanical diff. You said it in your description:
The LSD selected is a torque sensing helical gear differential
The key word in there is 'helical' - thats a type of cut on a gear cog. Torsen diffs were also available with a number of different cuts on the gears depending on the application of the diff. The other main 2 types of Torsen were the parallel & plantetary type geared units.

The later model FTO's (and this didn't apply to all facelifts as it was only an option for the post 97 GX & GPXs) was the viscous coupling type. A fluid filled coupling with multiple faces, it was a quieter diff which had fewer moving parts - hence less maitenance as there was less wear.

The pic is off a viscous coupling in a 4WD, so just imagine that setup running between the 2 front axles in an FTO.

Image
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AMACHA
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Post by AMACHA »

Hmmm thisi sreally odd i hada mechanic that used to work at the toyota import lot and he was the oen servicing my vehicle.When the car was up on the stnads and the car was in neutral he spun one wheel and hte other spun in the same direction and no mattter how hard i grabd the wheel i couldnt stop it from turning in thesame direciton. In my parents mazda i could stop the wheel quite easily.

The mechanic goes for sure it is an LSD.

Could putting Redline
lightweight shockproof oil in a non LSD gearbox hurt it??
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SG
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Re: LSD

Post by SG »

Wow i didnt' realise the later version r's and the ralliart magna had a torque sensing lsd, thats the same as the quaife lsd then. Much better than the cuscos which are viscous couplings.. basically no torque steer especially on tight corners if you accelerate hard. More grip too.
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Post by RallyMad »

Bennoz wrote:A Torsen diff [be]is[/be] a mechanical diff. You said it in your description:
The LSD selected is a torque sensing [be]helical[/be] gear differential
The key word in there is 'helical' - thats a type of cut on a gear cog. Torsen diffs were also available with a number of different cuts on the gears depending on the application of the diff. The other main 2 types of Torsen were the parallel & plantetary type geared units.

The later model FTO's (and this didn't apply to all facelifts as it was only an option for the post 97 GX & GPXs) was the viscous coupling type. A fluid filled coupling with multiple faces, it was a quieter diff which had fewer moving parts - hence less maitenance as there was less wear.
Thats where I'm getting confused now Bennoz, I thought the version R diff was the diff that was the option for all later model FTO's?

If this is so the aussie car journalists said it was this diff that was used in the ralliart magnas and every review I've ever read has highlighted this as being a torque sensing helical LSD and therefore mechanical.

That is what has gotten me so confused cause I always though it was a viscous diff.
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Post by Bennoz »

Nah, there were 2 different diffs offered. Majority of the GPvR's were mechanical type type thou. A couple for the poms were talking about this a while back.
GPVR so its if its a mechanical type its going to be a 1.5 way or the later viscous 1 way
RichardB seems to be able to find out what type of diff it is from the box numbers in CAPS.
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AMACHA
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Post by AMACHA »

Bennoz wrote:Nah, there were 2 different diffs offered. Majority of the GPvR's were mechanical type type thou. A couple for the poms were talking about this a while back.
GPVR so its if its a mechanical type its going to be a 1.5 way or the later viscous 1 way
RichardB seems to be able to find out what type of diff it is from the box numbers in CAPS.
Bennoz do you think i have an LSD?
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Bennoz
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Post by Bennoz »

AMACHA wrote:
Bennoz wrote:Nah, there were 2 different diffs offered. Majority of the GPvR's were mechanical type type thou. A couple for the poms were talking about this a while back.
GPVR so its if its a mechanical type its going to be a 1.5 way or the later viscous 1 way
RichardB seems to be able to find out what type of diff it is from the box numbers in CAPS.
Bennoz do you think i have an LSD?
Hard to say mate, as mentinoed the wheel spin test isn't alway accurate...

Your the driver, go test the one wheel on the grass trick!
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AMACHA
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Post by AMACHA »

Bennoz wrote:
AMACHA wrote:
Bennoz wrote:Nah, there were 2 different diffs offered. Majority of the GPvR's were mechanical type type thou. A couple for the poms were talking about this a while back.
GPVR so its if its a mechanical type its going to be a 1.5 way or the later viscous 1 way
RichardB seems to be able to find out what type of diff it is from the box numbers in CAPS.
Bennoz do you think i have an LSD?
Hard to say mate, as mentinoed the wheel spin test isn't alway accurate...

Your the driver, go test the one wheel on the grass trick!
can you put redline shockproof 75w-90 in a non lsd gearbox?could it be harmful to it?or would it be fine to use because i know this is the oil you guys use if you have a lsd so would it be ok to use if i didnt have it?

Oh and i dono if this will help but my mechanic who worked at the toyota import yard told me when servicing the car that if you hold one wheel while both are off the ground and spin the other one and cant stop the wheel your holding from spiining it means you got an LSD.(car in neutral). It makes sence to think about it it you drop teh clutch do a burnout if you cant stop both wheels form going in the same direction when there off the ground this would cause a double legger on the ground.
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Post by RallyMad »

on the oil front AMACHA, that is the standard required viscousity so It should be fine. On the LSD front I picked my oil by finding the viscousity the manual states then reading the bottles till I found one that said it was also usable in LSD's. At the end of the day though it is just a performance gearbox oil and given it is the correct viscousity it would be fine in a LSD or open diffed car.

I understand what you are saying mate and agree it makes sense though I found out what I was talking about through gearbox and LSD suppliers.

I think at the end of the day the big problem with trying to test either of the stock LSD's with one wheel up is that during normal running they are meant to act as open diff's only limiting the slip when a wheel starts to spin. Although as you say trying to turn both wheels could create this slip but I've still been told it's a really inefficent way of testing a LSD purely because the diff is not under full load or normal operating conditions.
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Post by AMACHA »

well i did a burnout today and what do you know i left two black lines lmao.

hey RallyMad is the normal FTO gearbox WITHOUT and LSD 75W-90? is it GL-4 or GL-5?
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Post by RallyMad »

I've only taken that from the workshop manuals mate, they don't make a distinction between LSD or open diff gearboxes. It only states as specified oil:

Hypoid gear oil SAE 75W - 90 or 75W - 85W confirming to API GL-4.

I'm not really sure what GL means though as I'm no oil expert, I only know I've got a 75W-90 penrite oil in mine that I can't remember what GL but I think is 4 and have had a great experience with it. Unfortunately Penrite don't make that oil anymore so I will be going to the Redline stuff everyone else seems to be using next time.

Everyone seems to run the same stuff anyway and nobody has had a problem so I'd just go with that. The issue for you may be if the diff is standard or not I'm not sure if an aftermarket LSD may require a different oil. Maybe Bennoz and SG (the only 2 guys I know of with aftermarket LSD's) can confirm if this is true or not.


Another thing with the LSD versus open diff gearboxes and the workshop manuals is that there is no mention in the workshop manuals I have seen of the LSD boxes. Everything is just in regard to the gearbox and specific components but there is no mention or specific requirements listed for a LSD. However as I've said,. everyone seems to be running that 75-90 oil and haven't had any problem so if that is what you have in and everything feels good I'd say your pretty safe.
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Post by RallyMad »

On the GL front AMACHA I just found this:
http://www.mivec.co.nz/forums/viewtopic ... w=previous


So you'll be wanting a GL4 oil or at least a GL5 oil that states it is GL4 safe. Not sure what the redline stuff is sorry.
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Post by AMACHA »

redline lightweight shcokproof is gl-5 mate
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Post by RallyMad »

Not sure on the redline stuff now, someone with an LSD that uses redline must be out there to let you know all is good though.......


From the searching I've just been doing I'm confused though, I do remember some people getting the LSD friction modifier with their redline if the have LSD's.

Some other threads on Manual Transmission oil to confuse the issue further...
http://www.ftoaustralia.com/modules.php ... il+redline

http://www.ftoaustralia.com/modules.php ... il+redline

Did read on the redline website that they don't recommend Shockproof for Synchro gearboxes 8O

I'll have to check on the GL of the oil I'm running and get back to you. I'm pretty sure it's a GL4 though and it's 75W90. I picked it as it says it is suitable for LSD's on the box. I'd say that is what you want, maybe Bennoz can tell us what he was running in his box now he's got a LSD?

With a viscous LSD I don't think the oil should matter though as long as it is the correct specification. For a mechanical LSD with nothing else to go on but the workshop manual and peoples experiences I'd be saying you can only follow what has worked for other, if it doesn't work for you then switch to another oil.
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Post by RallyMad »

actually getting into this a bit now, fair bit of research and crap around the net about this GL4 vs GL5 stuff.

I'd say we can only go on everyone elses experiences, I run a GL6 oil (just checked the specs) and have not had a problem to date, checking that I've found GL6 has been made obsolete anyway and Penrite say thier new version of my oil is acceptable for all passenger vehicles so I'm not sure what to do.

This does explain how a GL5 oil should be okay though:
GL-4; Specified for hypoid gear service under severe service but without shock loading. This classification is essentially obsolete but is still specified by some manual transmission/transaxle manufacturers. Implies an EP/AW additive package that contains 30% to 50% less S-P additives than the GL-5 service classification. Some Marine Gear Lubes fall into this classification, especially the full Synthetic Marine Gear lubes and specialty blenders MT lubes that use high levels of esters.

GL-5; Specified for hypoid gear service but with shock loads and severe service operation. Usually meets Mil-L-2105D and in most cases, is the multipurpose automotive gear oil. Most 75W90 to 75W140 grades meet the GL-5 classification. This grade has a high level of Extreme-Pressure additives that could be mildly corrosive to nonferrous parts, such as brass, bronze and aluminum parts. Most of the modern GL-5 lubes contain metal deactivators that prevents attacks by the extreme-pressure additives. In addition to EP additives, these lubes contain rust inhibitors, defoamants, friction modifiers, thickeners, and Viscosity Index Improvers.
from http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... ber=729255

That explains to me why it seems really hard to find a GL4 oil. At the end of the day though I guess we can only go on what everyone runs and thier experiences with it. I haven't had any problem with the Penrite stuff I run yet but I am a little concerned with a new noise I developed which I think is either diff or power steering related, hoping power steering due to all the belts issues I've had. I'll let you know what I find out if it's diff though.
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Post by AMACHA »

i just checked mate i have a Valvoline DuraGear 75w-90 GL-4 rated geat oil in tehre and it says its ok for transaxel (lsd+gearbox together).
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Post by RallyMad »

your sweet then mate. Gotta be happy you've confirmed you have a LSD now as well ;)

I got in contact with Penrite about my oil but they claim that the GL ratings are only a specification and that the GL5/6 oil I have at the moment is better than a GL4 oil :roll: In any case the reckon that it is fine for my application. Seems that it holds that the GL doesn't really seem to matter now days due to the additives that are added to prevent yellow metal damage which is the main difference between GL4 and GL5 oils.
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Post by RallyMad »

Bennoz wrote:Nah, there were 2 different diffs offered. Majority of the GPvR's were mechanical type type thou. A couple for the poms were talking about this a while back.
GPVR so its if its a mechanical type its going to be a 1.5 way or the later viscous 1 way
RichardB seems to be able to find out what type of diff it is from the box numbers in CAPS.
RichardB has kindly does this for me, with my gearbox code being F5M422V7A6 CAPS gives my LSD part number as being MD770978.

As of yet though I have not been able to figure out a way to determine which LSD this is. Any Suggestions anyone :?:
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Post by Bennoz »

There are 2 different part numbers for LSD centres in FTO's in CAPS. Both have dates they were used against them..

MD735332 used from Sep 1994 to Jan 1997.
MD770978 used from Feb 1997 to the end of production

You might be lucky, might be the later viscous type :!:
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