NSW Legislation Changes: L and P Plate Drivers (lengthy!)

[nicholas]

Firstly, this is my opinion and but not necessarily mine alone. I understand that others may (and will) have varying opinions; I respect that and welcome it. If you are so inclined, please let me know where you stand on this issue, but do refrain from getting personal.

From the 1st of July 2007, the legislation specific to novice drivers will change. These changes can be summed up as follows:

- Zero tolerance for speeding: if a P1 driver (red p-plater) is caught speeding (regardless of what km/h over the limit) they will lose their licence for a minimum of 3 months.

- One passenger under 25 between the hours of 11pm and 5am: any P1 driver under 25 may not carry more than one passenger under the age of 21 between 11pm and 5am

- No mobile phone use (handset, handsfree or otherwise) by P1 drivers

- all L and P plate drivers must display their plates clearly on the exterior of their vehicle

- Learner drivers must now accumulate 120 hours of driving experience over a minimum of 12 months

FYI, all laws except for the last are retrospective (ie. apply to all current P1 drivers). What do I find wrong with this?

In no particular order (this is a rant after all!)
- zero tolerance for speeding. This absolutely smacks of double standards. If P-platers must deal with a no-second chance policy, why shouldn't everyone? I think this is sending the wrong message to P-platers - do your time on a provisional licence, so that you can get your full licence and speed like the rest of the population in Sydney.
Also, who can honestly tell me that they have never, ever, willingly or otherwise, looked down at their speedo and seen that they were in fact a few kilometres over the limit? The RTA loves to inform us that speeding is a factor in something like 40% of collisions (apologise for not researching in more depth). But why just target speeding in p-platers. Is the NSW government prioritising the lives of p-platers over the lives of non-p-platers? Who gave them the right to do that?
And why couldn't the government place more emphasis on re-education and better training. Here's a suggestion - instead of just getting P-platers off the road for three months (which helps the government's statisticians but does nothing to educate the suspended young driver), why not allow drivers to attend a government-endorsed driver training course or similar, or perhaps force the young driver to spend some time in a rehabilitation clinic, working with road accident victims. On completion of such courses, the young driver can then be re-issued with their licence, hopefully a lot wiser and more responsible.

- one passenger limit. This is bullshit. Where to start? More cars on the road - good for global warming. The public transport system is an absolute mess (ie. in the Hills district where I live, we've been waiting for a train line for at least a decade, taxis are non-existant after 11pm and there are no buses to speak of if you wish to party further out than Castle Hill). I understand that young drivers (males in particular) are susceptible to peer pressure and doing silly things... but this decision is far too drastic (in my opinion). How about my little sister, who is often the designated driver for many of her schoolmates (boys in particular) after they've had too many to drink? Now she is faced with the moral dilemma - should she ensure she gets all her peers home safely and break the law in the process, or should she watch them all arrange alternative methods of transport, some of which I assure you will be unsafe and irresponsible.
Also, how will this law be enforced. While the driver of a vehicle is required to provide police with their age (via their licence), passengers are not. Does this mean that 15 and 16 year olds will be required to carry (and present to police) ID in their friend's cars? Rubbish.

- No mobile phone use. I agree, but how will the police be able to tell the difference between someone using a fully handsfree (ie. car installed) phone, and a young person singing along to their favourite song, or chatting with friends?

- all L and P plates displayed clearly on the outside of the vehicle. Why? Studies have shown that these plates serve as a distraction, more than anything else (apologies for lack of reference again). I believe that p-plates often make other drivers more aggressive, and are an easy means for police to target younger and more inexperienced drivers. If the government were so serious about road safety, they would not discriminate between unsafe practices in p-plate drivers and unrestricted drivers - speeding is still speeding and dying is still dying.

- Learner drivers must accumulate 120 hours over 12 months. Fine.

Heres what I think:
These new laws are cynical. They were introduced as a knee-jerk reaction to a spate of tragic accidents. Have a think about how they could be enforced. The fact that there are so many ambiguities in their enforcement, I think, proves that they were not well thought through at all.
I'm not saying that I think things shouldn't change; I agree that p-platers should be given all the help they can get in order to develop into better drivers, but this is not the way. By simply making these laws so restrictive, they will force many to go outside of the law. Why should my sister be faced with the decision of breaking the law, or watching alcohol-affected friends walk home along dark roads, or worse, attempt to drive themselves home?
I'm not saying that p-plater deaths aren't tragic, or avoidable. Of course they are, but so is every death on the road. Why not roll out zero-tolerance to all drivers?
I'm also sick to death with the attitude of non-p-plate drivers towards p-platers. Sure, there are p-platers who do drive irresponsibly, and who earn a bad reputation for the rest. But, the number of times I've witnessed non-p-plate drivers beeping at my younger sister when she slows down for school zones, or seen people unsafely overtake her because she is travelling at 60km/h in a 60km/h zone. It is actions like that which make me the angriest - why should my sister have to endure that sort of treatment by other drivers, when she is doing nothing other than obeying the law. Why?

Please, let me know what you think; I look forward to hearing.

[mr-charisma]

Arr you have brought up a sensitive topic for me... and even though I am no longer an 'L' or a 'P' plater, it still pisses me off...

I agree with everything you've said & then some... but I am going to give myself some time to calm down before posting anything Lol..

[Teania]

a very controversial topic - but a lot of good points and well written

Speeding - true - one rule should apply to all- and also a little leniency should be applied as if you spent all day watching your speedo - when would you ever watch the road? So maybe under 15km's should get a warning for the first offence? - over 15km's? - sorry - no excuse, if you can't feel you're speeding at that speed - then there's a problem and maybe you do need re-education and a deterrent - but again, for ALL not just P's
(I also think they should run more legal off street drag nights to cater for people who want to test their cars - and more open track days at a lower cost)

120 hours of practice - totally agree and some of that should also be driving on a skid pan or in the rain so they can get used to wet & slippery conditions (I also think everyone who has a licence should be able to change a tyre as well...... - sorry, pet hate and off topic)

More than one passenger - hard one...... yes, its the bad few that give the majority the bad name, this will be a real bummer for the real "designated drivers" - we always used to do that, 1 would not drink and drive the rest home - public transport needs to be improved BEFORE they bring this in.

Maybe they should stick with the restricting power of the car thing, sorry to those young drivers out there who can handle high powered cars - unfortunately - there are a lot who cannot and need far more practice than a mere 120 hours before hopping behind the wheel of a turbo/supercharged car.

I empathise with your sister, I slow down for school zones and constantly have to put up with people pushing me to go faster. (I'm way past P's - but big yellow vinyl decals over the car sort of make me stand out) I have seen things I would rather have not - hence I always slow down - big congrats to her for having the guts to do the right thing

On the flip side -I also think that Tolls on the roads should be abolished, or the money from them put towards constructing BETTER roads to improve traffic flow and reduce frustration and accidents....

Just my 2c worth (which rounded down is worth nothing in todays economy *sigh* )

Cheers
Tanya - god I feel old remembering how long ago I had my P's

[FtoSam]

I totally agree with all these points...

The no tollerance for speeding is bulls**t! Everyone speeds at some point.. sometimes accidently sometimes not.. either way i agree that 15km and under remain normal (maybe 2nd time u lose for 1 month) and anything over may be a loss...

or maybe introduce 15-30 over = 1 month suspension...

The 120 hours sounds fine.. But i agree that everyone should be force to complete a skid pan training day unless they are in a rural area (such as i was when i was on my P's.

The no passenger rule seems okay, as most dangerous driving by young males is in the presence of friends. However i believe that immediate family should be excepted so you can drive your siblings around.

One thing to remember is insurance...
I lost my liscence 3 times thanks to driving a nice car in a small town. The cops knew me and although i never drove like a hoon, They booked me for bullshit fines. picking up my phone off the floor to put back on the dash. 3 points and $255. etc etc.. My insurance went through the roof because of these losses... When young drivers lose their license (which so many more will) their insurance will skyrocket and will have more people on the roads un-insured.

a lot of this is unnecesary... Everyone makes mistakes. Especially new P plate drivers.

[mr-charisma]

- One passenger under 25 between the hours of 11pm and 5am: any P1 driver under 25 may not carry more than one passenger under the age of 21 between 11pm and 5am

This law is absolutely stupid...Seriously I can't believe how stupid and poorly thought out this law is..
Firstly, what would happen if a P Plater had to take a family member to the hospital, maybe their mum or something (obviously their mum wouldn't be able to drive), then they're forced to either break the law & take their little brothers & sisters with them, or leave them at home by themselves unsupervised?
You made a good point about designated drivers not being able to give their friends a lift home, but putting a curfew on when a P Plater is allowed to take multiple passengers is just not going to work... now instead of heading home at a reasonable time, people will be forced to stay out until after 5am when it is legal to drive their friends home. By then they will be tired & exhausted... I don't see how that makes it safer for them, or for other drivers on the road.

- Zero tolerance for speeding: if a P1 driver (red p-plater) is caught speeding (regardless of what km/h over the limit) they will lose their licence for a minimum of 3 months.

Yep that really helps them to become better drivers.. If they're going to put a zero-tolerance policy on speeding it should be for everyone.. Are they trying to indicate that speeding isn't dangerous if the person is over 25?
It would be more useful to have a zero policy on driving stupidly i.e. not indicating properly, weaving in & out of traffic, tailgating, switching lanes going around a roundabout & exiting a roundabout from the inside lane! Stupid driving is stupid driving, it doesn't matter how old you are... and before anyone says that you get wiser when you get older, that is rarely the case for most people.. (not all, but most)

- No mobile phone use (handset, handsfree or otherwise) by P1 drivers

Again, why only ban Mobiles & handsfree kits for P Plate drivers? I don't see how talking on a handsfree car kit is any different to singing along to the radio... are they going to ban young people from listening to music as well? (I give it less than a year before they try to blame this as the cause of accidents involving 'young people' and then try to bring this in as a law)
Also, young people under 25 are a lot better with technological gadgets than older people, over 25's would have more problems switching onto the handsfree kit/bluetooth headsets & become distracted trying to get it to work & then end up pulling into oncoming traffic..

- all L and P plate drivers must display their plates clearly on the exterior of their vehicle

Really don't see what useful purpose this serves, non 'P' plate drivers only get frustrated at 'L' & 'P' plater cars and don't actually give them any extra room or make it easier for them at all.

- Learner drivers must now accumulate 120 hours of driving experience over a minimum of 12 months

I actually think that it should be more! I don't think that it should have to be with a Driving instructor though, they should have it as a compulsory subject at school, even if it is just an hour a week & it should be paid for by the Government. I think it should be compulsory to undertake a defensive driving course, or for people to get experience driving on a skid pan or in the wet (in controlled conditions) & NOT JUST UNDER 25's , but I think that the Government should foot the bill for it. The amount of times I've seen people almost run off the road & roll their cars because they have no idea how to correct their car when they slide out in the wet...

Teania, I agree with you (mostly) about keeping (some of) the restrictions on 'P' & 'L' platers from being able to drive high powered cars.
I actually think that everyone should be restricted from driving high powered cars, regardless of their age i.e. A 40 year old who has only just gotten their licence (or has only ever driven a low HP Car) is just as likely to not know how to handle a high powered car as what a 20 year old is.

I think that there should be seperate licences for high powered vehicles vs low powered vehicles, just as there is for trucks, motorbikes & boats. To qualify for driving a high powered car you should have to spend a certain amount of time each year driving at a track & learn how to control a car properly, do defensive driving courses each year or whatever..

I think that there should be exceptions on high powered car restrictions for 'L' & 'P' platers involved in Track events / car clubs / rally etc as well... at least it shows that they've learnt to drive them safely & that they're less likely to speed on the road if they get to speed regularly at the track & get it out of their system.

And I agree about fixing the unsafe roads as well as unsafe drivers, I generally tend to think that most of the time the roads are a lot more dangerous...

[mr-charisma]

The no passenger rule seems okay, as most dangerous driving by young males is in the presence of friends. However i believe that immediate family should be excepted so you can drive your siblings around.

Thats probably true in a lot of cases, but their friends might not neccessarily be in the same car Instead they could likely be in the car next to them on the highway...

[FtoSam]

Awesome ideas about the high powered cars...

Qualifying to drive them sounds good...

0(excel) - 160hp/ton = normal lisc.
160-300hp/ton = sports lisc.
300+hp/ ton = performance lisc.

Nothing worse than some little sh*t, fresh on his full license after driving his crappy excel on his P's and decides to take daddy's WRX/GTR/V8 for a high speed run with his mates one arvo....

Or some rich PR**K wraps his newly bought lambo around a pole when he tries to do a burnout.

[Rocco]

I agree with some of the changes,mainly the zero tolerance for speeding.Not a day goes by when some P-plater doesn't go flying past me in some crazy inside lane maneuver.

[mr-charisma]

I agree with some of the changes,mainly the zero tolerance for speeding.Not a day goes by when some P-plater doesn't go flying past me in some crazy inside lane maneuver.

not a day goes by when a 30+ year old doesn't fly past me / speed up from behind and tailgate to get me to go faster or weave in and out of traffic stupidly fast to get around me.. its not just 'P' platers ...
(does anyone take notice when a 'P' plater is sticking to the limit & driving responsibly though? Aside from beeping their horn at them to 'get out of the way')

[mr_f700]

so do these new laws apply to people who already have their ps or is it for people from the 7th who get their ps??


thanx

[FtoSam]

FYI, all laws except for the last are retrospective (ie. apply to all current P1 drivers).

That means yes

[akuma3]

The only one i will object to is the passenger one ... the other ones is resaonble

[SILVERFISH]

you gotta learn to walk before you can run... so i'm not against these restrictions

No tolerance on speeding - you've only just gotten your licence
and you're already breaking the law? why do you deserve a 2nd chance

Limiting passengers late at night - the majority of fatal accidents are
late at night, so it's only logical that if you remove passengers
then you'll reduce the number of people hurt and/or killed in the
event of an accident. i disagree with the age limitation on it though.

most older drivers will admit they weren't the greatest drivers when
they were first starting out. only time can give you experience at
dealing with different driving conditions and scenarios... so placing
restrictions on younger drivers is reasonable.

if you look at it on a long term basis... if you hold your licence for
50 years, being on restrictions for 2 or 3 years isn't much of a sacrifice.

one last point... these restrictions will be popular with a vast
majority of the voting public because these restrictions don't affect them,
so you might as well get used to them


* NOTE - background info - i'm 30 so i couldn't care less about restrictions
on younger drivers... driving is a privilege, abuse it and you deserve to lose it.
also, my cousin was killed when he was 19 as the passenger in a car
involved in a late night accident.

[Rocco]

^^^^ I agree.

[Lawso]

I'm a "bloody P plater" and these are my opinions in the new laws

"Zero tolerance on speeding"

yes, fair enough, i agree with this. although, maybe a little too strict. going down a hill at 61k's when the limit is 60 and getting booked for that would be incredibly annoying. 80 bucks, a license suspension, up goes your insurance premium even though they're already in the thousands. but i do agree with that one

"One passenger after 11pm"

alright, here's my rant. i've already been caught out with this one. 11.05, on the major road connecting coogee to maroubra (This is in Sydney's eastern suberbs) taking my mates home that were passed out drunk in the back seat in my dads 2003 and 3 stock ford falcon. 400 F***ING DOLLARS, AND 3 F***ING POINTS!!!!! i only had my license for 3 weeks, and now i've had 1 point for over half a year. I wasn't speeding, didn't have any loud blaring songs blasting out the stereo, doing about 10 under the limit. all i wanted to do was get my mates home safely. All i was trying to do was be the good samaratin, and i almost lose my license. although my mates did pay the fine, which i was really thankful for, but it still doesn't erase the fact that if i do as little as forget to put my headlights on, BANG, license gone.

"No mobile Phone Use"

again, i agree. P platers don't need another distraction that will possibly kill them, and someone else. although, with mp3 players now more common on phones, i use my phone as my ipod so to speak. its hooked up to the cars stereo, and i listen to the music off it. even though i refuse calls, and do not read texts if i get any, will i still be done for using a phone?

"L and P plates to be shown on outside of vehicle"

i didn't care about this one, until the D***heads at my school stole all my p plates, and i illegally drove to the RTA one day, and i got pulled up for a cop a block from the RTA to get new p plates. i was let off, but the heart rate went up to about 200, and my underpants turned brown in colour. i threatened something against the guys who were doing it, and i haven't had a p stolen again

"Learners must do 120 hours"

i see this as an annoyance. i was a good L plater, but when i get in a car by myself, i started driving a lot differently. aggressively. when ANY L plater gets into a car by his/her self, the adrenaline will take over, and they will drive differently. maybe not aggresively, or whatnot, but maybe faster, or, like something they have seen on a movie, but its what happens. i drive a ford focus, 93 BHP, FWD, no power, no nothing, i sometimes drive it like my mates Nissan skyline R-33 GTS-t.

thats my rant, and my view on these new laws.

F*** NSW just lost origin 30 - 0

annoyed on both counts.

i can only imagine what happens when i eventually buy an fto

[xSlurpee]

nicely said dude, i agree with most of the points
even though its been a year with these *~delightful!~* new laws i reckon its bullshit and the law just want to piss off fresh p platers

- No mobile phone use (including handsfree). = stupid, i often sing a lot when a good song is played on radio or listening to a cd and how can the police tell?

- Zero tolerance for speeding. = being unfair, this should apply to everyone on the road.

the rest i dont mind, cause im unaffected by theses laws YET as im still a learner (weee can still drive turbo'd cars )

[Lawso]

the rest i dont mind, cause im unaffected by theses laws YET as im still a learner (weee can still drive turbo'd car

You may still be able to drive a turbo car, but i'm sure your parents, or driving instructor will have something to say if you decide to put your foot down and test out the 0-60 of the turbo car your driving

and once again i'd just like to show how utterly disgusted i am at last night origin score...30 - 0 QLD[/quote]

[Bennoz]

There will be no more talk of Origin thank you!

[vipfto]

There will be no more talk of Origin thank you!

HAHAHA The sad thing is even though NZ is closer to NSW and even used to be under NSW rule most kiwis support QLD


(Sorry for the hijack) just have to wind ya all up

[Bennoz]

There will be no more talk of Origin thank you!

HAHAHA The sad thing is even though NZ is closer to NSW and even used to be under NSW rule most kiwis support QLD


(Sorry for the hijack) just have to wind ya all up

So true... I've got a mate like you. The worst of the lot. Not only a QLD suppoter, but an All Blacks supporter as well