FTO AUSTRALIA

paladin wrote:does sound good i got no idea what the 6A13 engine and turbo set up is like! other then its from the 206kw jap galant VR4 and Legnum VR4 if it dosn cost that much more then a new engine (ie ecu and piping) i would be very keen!

If you are going to turbo your FTO, I think adding the cost of a 6A13 motor to the cost of doing the turbo job is how you should look at it.

Sorry folks i will try to make this clear what i mean.

I believe if you are going to spend the money on putting a turbo on a FTO.

Then you should consider spending the extra money above your turbo conversion money to get the 6A13TT motor but forget about the Twin turbos, sell the turbos to a VR4 owner.

Then when you are getting the turbo put on, you get them to then drop the 6A13 in before they start their work, It bolts straight up to the FTO box and engine mounts. Chuck the Battery in the boot and you got loads of room for a single turbo

All the work they will do on the turbo installation will be the same as for the 6A12, but you will have a motor you can run a lot more boost on. I am currently running 18 Lb boost on stock internals and havent had a problem with the engine since i got the boost controller sorted out.

When you crack a 6A13 TT motor open and have a look at it Mitsy have done a good job of building the motor. Put some forged pistons and rods in it and you can run some very high boost no problems, well that what we think, will know by the end of this year hopefully.

Work is progressing on the motor, pistons and rods have arrived.

basically you're looking at $10K+ for a 6A13 conversion. i've gone through the figures before and these are some of the estimates i've been quoted:

you could sell the factory twinturbos and if you're lucky enough to sell at a good price you could buy yourself a brand new single turbo for the 6A13 (expect about $2.2k+)

to get someone to fabricate the tubular manifolds for you would cost you close to $1.5K already (if not more). maybe more if you want it to be HPC coated...

mild steel mandrel exhaust system from turbo back, from about $1.2K

ECU, from $1.2K supplied only (factor in a several hundred $$ more for fitting and tuning)

the 6A13 engine alone will set you back anywhere from $2.5k - $3.5k easily (depending on condition as well) supplied only

the intercooler will also eat up a chunk of your budget, depending on where you get them from, expect to pay from $550+ just for the intercooler, plus another $700+ for the plumbing + hoses + fittings

then you get to the upgraded fuel pump, which will prob set you back from $350+ (assuming you are running stock 6A13 injectors)

since you got a turbo car, you should also get a boost controller, which can set you back from $250 for a cheap bleed valve to $1.2K for an electronic boost controller (or you might get lucky on eBay LoL), then there's the BoV (from $300 upwards)

and nevertheless, for manual equipped cars you need a better clutch that can handle all the extra mumbo, which can be anywhere from $700+ to $3K+, depending on how crazy u wanna get...

then there's the cost of labour for everything, which can vary a great deal depending on who you go to for the work to get done...

the above figures are just ESTIMATES, but yes arguably there is no doubt that there's a whole lot more potential in the 6A13...

the question is, could you fork out $10K-$13K for such a relatively large job, and really use its potential on the street effectively? don't forget, $10K-$13K is for the engine bay only - not incl brakes, suspension, lsd etc... mega mumbo won't help if you don't have the necessary hardware to put it all onto the ground...

Danny's got a lot more work lined up for his car because he has long term plans for it... (oh and because he's crazy LoL)

Have you sorted your clutch probs Danny?

GPXXX wrote:basically you're looking at $10K+ for a 6A13 conversion. i've gone through the figures before and these are some of the estimates i've been quoted:

Sounds about right to me.

GPXXX wrote:you could sell the factory twinturbos and if you're lucky enough to sell at a good price you could buy yourself a brand new single turbo for the 6A13 (expect about $2.2k+)

Unlikely you will get enough to buy a brand new single. I would say about half that, but could take you quite awhile before you sell them there is not a big demand for them. I had mine over a year before i sold them.

GPXXX wrote:to get someone to fabricate the tubular manifolds for you would cost you close to $1.5K already (if not more). maybe more if you want it to be HPC coated...

This would also be required if turboing a 6A12

GPXXX wrote:mild steel mandrel exhaust system from turbo back, from about $1.2K

This would also be required if turboing a 6A12

GPXXX wrote:ECU, from $1.2K supplied only (factor in a several hundred $$ more for fitting and tuning)

This is could be left off both the 6A13 and the 6A12, but i would recomend you install a decent aftermarket ECU as then you dont need fuel controlers and boost controlers as these will all be included in any decent aftermarket ECU. so really speaking. This would also be required if turboing a 6A12

GPXXX wrote:the 6A13 engine alone will set you back anywhere from $2.5k - $3.5k easily (depending on condition as well) supplied only

Plus shipping and taxes if you cant find in Australia. But i have noticed a couple of half cuts come available recently so hopefully their price might start to drop now. This item is not required for turboing a 6A12

GPXXX wrote:the intercooler will also eat up a chunk of your budget, depending on where you get them from, expect to pay from $550+ just for the intercooler, plus another $700+ for the plumbing + hoses + fittings

This would also be required if turboing a 6A12

GPXXX wrote:then you get to the upgraded fuel pump, which will prob set you back from $350+ (assuming you are running stock 6A13 injectors)

This would also be required if turboing a 6A12. And add in the cost of 6 bigger injectors around $1000

GPXXX wrote:since you got a turbo car, you should also get a boost controller, which can set you back from $250 for a cheap bleed valve to $1.2K for an electronic boost controller (or you might get lucky on eBay LoL), then there's the BoV (from $300 upwards)

But if you have the decent aftermarket ECU all you will need is a electronic boost control valve about $100 for boost control and a BOV.This would also be required if turboing a 6A12.

GPXXX wrote:and nevertheless, for manual equipped cars you need a better clutch that can handle all the extra mumbo, which can be anywhere from $700+ to $3K+, depending on how crazy u wanna get...

I strongly suggest you go Auto, this gives you the ability to spend more time concentrating on the torque steer. And you wont be replacing clutches every few months. This would also be required if turboing a 6A12.

GPXXX wrote:then there's the cost of labour for everything, which can vary a great deal depending on who you go to for the work to get done...

This would also be required if turboing a 6A12. Just add a extra couple of days labour to fit the 6A13. This bolts straight in so a good workshop should have the 6A12 out and the 6A13 in in under 2 days.

GPXXX wrote:the above figures are just ESTIMATES, but yes arguably there is no doubt that there's a whole lot more potential in the 6A13...

The reason i suggest spending the extra few grand, is you then have a motor that is designed and built for a turbo. what boost you run it at and how you drive it is up to you, but you will toast most turbo cars out there. It is a extra .5 of a litre and also it will cost you more than a few grand to strengthen a 6A12 to be able to run more than about 7 Lb boost. Also if you sell the turbos for $1000 and you save a $1000 on injectors spend $1000 getting the 6A13 fitted and $3000 - $4000 for the 6A13 motor. you do the math.

GPXXX wrote:the question is, could you fork out $10K-$13K for such a relatively large job, and really use its potential on the street effectively? don't forget, $10K-$13K is for the engine bay only - not incl brakes, suspension, lsd etc... mega mumbo won't help if you don't have the necessary hardware to put it all onto the ground...

How much is a turbo for a 6A12 going to cost and if you turbo a 6A12 shouldnt you do all those things to get power to the ground as well.

GPXXX wrote:Danny's got a lot more work lined up for his car because he has long term plans for it... (oh and because he's crazy LoL)

Hey I am over 30 no wife and kids and i want a FWD with over 500 Hp at the wheels that will do a 10 sec 1/4 mile. ( maybe i am crazy )

GPXXX wrote:Have you sorted your clutch probs Danny?

Waiting for some holidays so i can take the car off the road for a few weeks and pulll the engine out, and do a couple of other mods. Stay tuned.

just out of intrest danny, have you ocmpared the weight of your car with the new engine ??
also why can you get a 6a13 half cut and use the twin turbos and all the manifolds and maybe even the intercooler and just modify the piping ??.
Wouldnt it be possible to grab a half cut, pull the engine and ecu out, plug it in and drop the engine in ?? i know the piping wont fit on top, that just one modification.

oh also with a hlaf cut im not sure if the galant had bigger brakes, you could steal them off it too

:/ bugger i was hopping for like an extra 3-5k, not 7
maybe i should wait to inherit my bros s15 equipment when he finsihes his mods... in a couple of years!!

DOH

o well was a nice dea and thanks for all the info! definetly somthing to consider latter on

G_A_V wrote:just out of intrest danny, have you ocmpared the weight of your car with the new engine ??

No not yet.

G_A_V wrote:also why can you get a 6a13 half cut and use the twin turbos and all the manifolds and maybe even the intercooler and just modify the piping ??..

You could do that, but you would have to remove all your dash and bow the fire wall so that the turbo and manifolds can fit as there is not enough clearance between the engine and the firewall, ( as stated in one of my previous posts. )

Also it is normal for a 6A13TT half cut to have been in a accident and that is normally a front end accident that has made it too expensive to fix the car. So the intercooler is usually damaged beyond repair. The VR4 Legnum and Galant which has the 6A13 TT in it was first produced in mid 1996, so this means that you will only get a damaged half cut as most VR4s with the 6A13 TT are still selling at auction in Japan for around 10 grand and they will still fix slightly damaged cars.

G_A_V wrote:Wouldnt it be possible to grab a half cut, pull the engine and ecu out, plug it in and drop the engine in ?? i know the piping wont fit on top, that just one modification.

NO it is not possible to do it with only one modification to the piping , ask Richard Batty in the UK he has nearly finished doing what you are talking about and it has taken him about 18 months.

dannyboyau wrote:

Black_FTOGPX wrote:For example was a custom manifold needed in order to make the transplant fit, or was that so you could just use the single turbo?

To keep the 6A13 Twin turbo would require custom manifolds or you would have to bow the fire wall. It was a lot easier to fit a single turbo and made sence performance wise.

Black_FTOGPX wrote:What I’m trying to ask is what would needed to be modified to make this fit if you just wanted a stock 6A13TT to fit.

You would have to build new exaust manifolds, oil feeds and oil returns to the turbos, water feeds and water returns to the turbos. or modify the fire wall, and all new intercooler plumbing, new fuel pump and new exhaust. Rewiring the engine and new computer or 6A13TT computer would have to be wired in. I recomend going with a good aftermarket computer as this will cost more but will give you better control when tuning, and if you use the original computer you would then need fuel and boost controlers
( piggy back computer ) Better to get a new computer that does all that and much more.
You would be best to speak to the person who would do the conversion as they will look at it and have there own ideas about what is easiest and quickest, " time is money "

Black_FTOGPX wrote:Could you use the 6A13tt’s gear box?

You could probably get it to fit, How much it would cost i dont know. Do you want to make it a 4WD or keep it a FWD. Why do you want to use the 6A13 Box the original FTO box will bolt on. I would keep it Auto and have the Auto strengthened as this would cost not much more then a decent twin plate clutch and flywheel.

Black_FTOGPX wrote:How much in parts would you think this would be?

This depends on what parts you use.

Black_FTOGPX wrote:Do you think not including any extras do you think this could be done for under $10,000?

Again how long is a piece of string
This is too hard to answer as that depends on who is doing the job, and what parts you will use, and what quality you want.

If you use a Galant VR4 half cut and you do the Job your self in your own workshop. yes under 10k. If you pay some one to do it for you, I dont think so.

G_A_V wrote:oh also with a hlaf cut im not sure if the galant had bigger brakes, you could steal them off it too

Yes they are bigger brake disks ( i think they are 292 mm diameter )virtually the same brake caliper though.

still one small problem, most half cuts come with out the brakes.

hey fellas when it comes to getting mods done to your car, and also this goes for many other services you pay for.

You pay peanuts you get monkeys

So if you want good performance it is going to cost you money.

You should sit down and figure out how much you can spend on your mods.

Then decide what your going to do.

you want Turbo on your FTO well unless you are a mechanic or have a close friend who is one, it is going to cost you 10K + for a half decent job.

Danny I wished you hadn`t done those last few posts. I have just sourced a 6A13TT in Australia, and am in the process of bargining him down. How can I do this if everyone starts chasing 6a13`s.
Good of you to share all of your knowledge.
You have certainly inspired me and my project.
I have already done suspension, brakes, strengthened tip box and converter. Next is the 6A13, followed by the T28BB.
One question - Could I just transplant the 6A13 and leave it NA for a period before the turbo?
The workshop I have found to do the Turbo will not do the transplant. They state they have had too many problems in the past. I have found another workshop that has done a 6A13 transplant into a FTO, but could not get the TT to fit. I spoke to them about this and they were cursing the owner as he had told them the 6A13TT would bolt straight in. The owner towed the FTO to another shop, so I don`t know how it ended up.
Can I just bolt in the 13 and leave it NA? Untill I get the custom Turbo fitted. Will the stock ecu cope with this?
Many thanks
Jeff

as mentioned before, the factory TT on the 6A13 will not fit inside the FTO engine bay (assuming if the motor is fitted on the factory engine mounts) because it is fouling against the firewall on the rear bank...

provided you that re-fabricate the manifolds for the exhaust, there's no reason why it cannot run in NA trim but I don't see the point in wasting your money doing that because you will be turboing it anyway, so while the engine is in (minus the twinturbos and all the assoc piping that goes with it), why not just get the engineers to build you a custom manifold on the 6A13 for the GT28?

And if you insist on running the 6A13 in NA form, i still think you will need to get an aftermarket ECU anyway because the factory ECU is tuned according to turbo specs only, unless it is remappable (which i highly doubt). besides, you will need it when tuning for the GT28...

My 2c...

Why not get an NA 6A13 and turbo that?

Would the internals be different?

i suspect the crank/pistons/rods should be the same on the 6A13.... it's the same block afterall.

Sorry guys I missled you.
The reason for running NA, is that I will be doing the 6A13 transplant in a mates workshop. Then I will have to take it to a second workshop to do the custom turbo.
I was only talking about running NA for about 50 km.

Could I use the stock 6A12 ecu for the trip, or would I have to use the 6A13 ecu (without turbo), or worse would I have to tow it.
Any advice apriciated.
Jeff

i think you're better off towing it dude... You'll be spending a few hundred dollars (at least) to fabricate an exhaust manifold on the 6A13 to connect to the rest of your exhaust system...

for that money spent, you could get it towed for much cheaper than that... besides, i'm not sure if the 6A12 ecu will work on the NA 6A13 (fuel and ignition mapping may be different) and I could safely say that it has not been tried before anywhere so it has the potential to open a can of worms if things go wrong...

but that's just me... I'd rather be safe than sorry

Black_FTOGPX wrote:Why not get an NA 6A13 and turbo that?

Would the internals be different?

Yes the internals are differant on a 6A13 N/A. The compression ratio of the pistons is the main one.

Jeff wrote:Danny I wished you hadn`t done those last few posts. I have just sourced a 6A13TT in Australia, and am in the process of bargining him down. How can I do this if everyone starts chasing 6a13`s.

Sorry Jeff. good luck with the project any questions just leave me a message, and i will try and answer it.

Jeff wrote:Sorry guys I missled you.
The reason for running NA, is that I will be doing the 6A13 transplant in a mates workshop. Then I will have to take it to a second workshop to do the custom turbo.
I was only talking about running NA for about 50 km.

Could I use the stock 6A12 ecu for the trip, or would I have to use the 6A13 ecu (without turbo), or worse would I have to tow it.
Any advice apriciated.
Jeff

Im with Mikey, tow it. The time and money you spend to get the 6A13 going as a N/A engine would be a waste, better to spend it on the single turbo side of it, extra money for a nice aftermarket ECU or maybe for some ceramic coating for the exhaust manifolds.

just added a few photos

http://photos.yahoo.com/dannyboyau

more to come over the next few weeks as the new engine goes together

Hi Danny,
Just thought I`d give you all an update on my project.
Finally settled on a workshop on the Gold Coast who have built some great cars. The 6A13TT has been transplanted and some of the work on the manifolds has been done. The guys have got me a good deal on a 35/40BB Turbo,( rated at 700hp) which is the next size up from the GT28, ( hoping there won`t be much lag.) As for ECU, the workshop is the Qld distributer for microtech, but have had problems with tip boxes before, so I am going to stick with the Unichip that I have already. The fuel pump you sold me is in. They were going to upgrade to a 700hp pump but the 255l is rated to 500hp so should do the job. They also recomended upsizeing the injectors rather than fitting an extra couple. 6 x 760cc injectors. With all this there is no way I expect to lean out and do damage. Hopefully in less than 2 weeks I should have my baby back. I can`t wait to do my first 1/4 mile after the work is done. Also have a track day at Willowbank in Oct.
Will let you know when its done.
Jeff

sounds great

cant wait to see a few pics, dont forget to get your exhaust manifolds ceramic coated the differance is huge.

looks like you might get some time slips before me, i better get a move on with mine, might have to take it for run down the strip with this clutch in it.