FTO AUSTRALIA

Idawina, it can not be just a myth
Just by looking at the physical size of a V6 block compared to a 4 cylinder block.
Then, there is the twin heads with twin cams compared to the single cam SOHC head (and this is so high up it disturbs centre of gravity)
And not to mention being a V6 one of the banks of cylinders sits so far at the front of the car compared to a 4 cyl

I think the difference should be a good 50ish kg but it's also how those 50kg are spred. They are moved further forwards and upwards which is the worst possible thing to do



Droidy, you don't remember our conversations! I didn't say stick with the lancer and don't go honda, I said don't shame mitsubishi by putting a honda engine in it when you were discussing putting a K20A into it
And I still stand by that



Fair enough being unique, and different is all good but in the end of the day is it worth paying 6 times more for it?
To some yes to some no

I think you should really be talking to Dave from RPW, and hopefully he can work out a deal with these guys so he can make alloy 2.5 MIVEC
That, would be awesome!



And the other thing I was trying to say is, for the 5K for example it cost to make a alloy block, you can definately save weight else where, make more power and run better suspension with better result


As far as traction goes, I think Honda just knows what it is that creates FWD traction and employs that into each of their cars. The fact that we have so much more weight over our wheels should only increase traction.
I am thinking Honda traction is a mix of better suspension, better weight distribution (lower cg) double wishbone, less weight transfer and engine rotation/mounts.


Oh, and as a last comment
I have weight my car at 740kg over the front wheels
And have weighed my friends B16A EG hatch.
How much less would you expect it to be?
2 heads, cast iron V6, 4 cams, bigger gearbox, heavier car Vs 4 cyl, 1 head, 1 cams, all aloy, smaller gearbox, smaller car

The EG had 660kg over the front wheels. I was expecting more than just 80kg difference

At the same time, it has 340kg over the rear wheels and I had 380kg over the rear wheels
So weight distribution was exactly the same for both cars (66/34)


Of course, realistically with alloy carbon bonnet, battery removal, lightweight extractors etc etc I think the lancer can probably lose about 80ish kg from the front, and say from relocation gain 20ish at the back
So 660kg front and 400kg rear
I think for a FWD car this is already not a bad balance as ITR's are generally 62/38 I think

Let me know your thoughts


PS. As you can see with all this money on everything, you are just trying to be a ITR (well at least I have been)
You can buy one for less than doing up the lancer, with more available proven mods

Spetz it's good to hear from you dude.. basically I think you've got to think outside of the square, and put cost out of the equation for a minute. That might sound crazy, but if you think about the cost of engineering the perfect car all the time, it's gonna hinder you're ability to think clearly, hence you're creativity is gonna be limmited. Think about it, if you're gonna paint a picture, and are blocking you're creative flow because you're limiting yourself to x millilitres of paint, then that's all you gonna focus on. I think you have to let all you're creative ideas flow freely, then when you have the perfect plan, set out, that's when you start getting business savy, and trying to do things for the best value you can.
I think you're specs on comparing you're car to the eg hatch only make me more convinced that what i'm saying about the block is on point. I believe the easiest way to prove this is to rig this experiment I suggested, and add weight between the wheels on the civic and see what happens. It's just seems obvious to me, that the block is like an anchor on a ship (literally, it's made of the same material) and when you want to move fast, there's too much weight resisting, and it's right there in the heart of the beast, and the car doesn't respond like it could- like the civics do.
What happens? The car bogs down a bit, or the torque (one of the main advantages of a v configuration I'd say) doesn't get to the ground, the resistance in weight is too much and the weakest link, the contact patch of the tire- breaks traction. Not ideal for moving forward rapidly! That's the feeling you're looking for specifically, not the VTEC YO!!!!! pop, or turbo boost.
I do remember our conversations man, and I really appreciate you're opinion, and I totally respect where you're coming from, cause I know you know what's up, and have the on road experience of driving these cars to back it up. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant a bit about the k20 in the lancer.. none the less, it's from talking to you that my faith in Mivec has been restored! I really apreciate you showing me the mivec lancer's capabilities, even though you did scare the crap out of me a bit
By the way, the photo I've seen of you're car, very very nice- you're lucky to have recaros and everything!
I don't nessasarilly want to turn my car into a itr! I want it to be the best lancer hybrid it can possibly be! But essentially, yes I'd love it to perform at the level of a modded jdm dc2r, even though I've never driven one of these (there's a couple in Melbourne actually).
Don't put yourself down either, you're obviously not stupid- stubborn maybe But then look at me But hey, when it comes to Mivec power, beeing stuborn is what it's about haha

haha you think I scared you
I took a friend for a pretty hard spin last friday and he got out of the car shaking



How do you suggest to put extra weight on the civic? I'll ask my friend if he is willing to do it then it would be a good experiment (hmmm, he weighs 80kg, maybe I can strap him on the bonnet?)

I'm really happy there are people like you (and even kinda me) who do try and make these things work, but I just want to try and pass on my experience where I wanted everything to be done so well on the car, spent a whole lot of money only to find out it is too much money wasted. Money is the largest factor in this!
I mean, if it would only cost $2000 to do AWD, MIVEC 2.5, worked, change to carbon bits etc rest assured my car would have all that... but so would any other car


The handling of the blue lancer is nothing to go by either. It has FTO coilovers with odd matched spring rates, and somehow has a 25mm front swaybar with just a stock hollow FTO rear swaybar. I think it actually handles good considering it's suspension specs



In the end of the day you are really trying to achieve what you can essentially get off the shelf with Honda.
And the sad part is you'll spend like 50-60 grand just trying to make everything perfect, and then an EG civic with mildly modded K20A and some nice suspension work will still beat you
Honda still has double wishbone suspension, and the knowledge Honda gains from racing F1 cars goes onto their street cars. And true, Mitsubishi does the same with rally cars but that is on evo's and stuff
Honda is too good to compete against with Mitsubishi's lower range vehicles, because Mitsubishi makes a car to get around in for a good price, Honda does the same but uses is vastly superior knowledge in this department
I think you gotta start looking at bang for buck value.
Firstly, I don't think you know how much this alloy block will cost. Everyone is assuming a few grand, but I was reading the website and it said that the austin block (just to make the casting etc) look 1500 hours
Now, engine people normally charge like $50 an hour. I think your jaw will drop to the ground when you hear the price


I hope you aren't finding me rude or anything, as you know we've met eachother in person and I was completely honest with you about my opinions and thoughts and I am really just trying to give you the best advice I can.


I think you should think what you want in a car.
Turbo RWD, AWD, or a fast NA FWD that handles
I want a fast NA FWD that handles. I have the lancer which is what I am working with but like I mentioned if I could start all over again I would just get a EM1 or EK hatch
25 grand later it will be a low 13, high 12 second street car that handles like on rails, and looks awesome



Oh and last thing, 22 grand will get you evo engine + drivetrain + AYC, engineered etc in your CE coupe.
Better option and from mods you are talking about it seems like a hugely less expensive option too!

I think 75 grand for a block is alright No ofcourse that's unrealistic. I didn't actually find that part where they mentioned the hours.. I'll have to check that out. You'd be working 7 hrs a day, 5 days a week for a year to do that I can't believe that there is more interest in a 50 (?) year old british touring car than there is in the fto! Because there must be widescale interest, or else it wouldn't be financially viable for this company to do it. We don't know for a fact that it would cost that much- have to find out tommorrow.
Nah you're not being rude Spetz, I appreciate your perspective, I didn't expect this to be an easy path to take. Yeah I've thought about the evo 4 wheel drive conversion, but it's been done, and I want a fwd na car that performs and handles, like yourself. Come to think about it, there's probably as much work converting to 4wd than casting a block.
Not even any other hondas are as fast as eg hatchs with k20s! Neither are heaps of other cars for that matter. If bad habit can run 12.7 (dc2 teg with red top h22) maybe capable of 12.5, and the jdm yard egk20a civic can run a 12.3.. and I could run a 12.9, maybe even a 12.7, with the setup I mentioned earlier, I would be very very happy I don't think this is immpossible, although it's just a theory as yet, cause no one's seen what this 6a13 can do yet...
But yeah, the easist way to test my theory would be to add the weight to the civic, maybe get about 5 5 kg weights and try and attach them somehow- i dunno I put 2 20 kg iron plates on a dumbell and rested them between the rocker cover and the radiator support for my little experiment, but that's not something I'd reccomend
I think if having an iron block was an advantage for traction, vtecs would have them! I think this is a myth, that has roots in the previous generation of v8 guys that had huge torque that they couldn't put down to the ground.. incidently these are the same people who think fwd cars suck, but they just don't realise how good they are these days... a dc2r or fto or ce lancer is a long way from a '79 colt or or something..
What do you think of the evo control arm idea spetz? That's rally technology!! And evo/mirage hybrids make great tarmac rally cars apparently.
Yeah, when I first went to gpc, before you even got you're swap done, I knew straight off that I wouldn't be satisfied for the financial out lay. I don't wanna pay charlie that much for a 14 sec car. Maybe if I do it myself (with help) it is worth it. I think at this stage, the alloy block is a long term, diy type of hobbie project. But I'm definitely leaning towards the 6a13 in any case, and I will have a Mivec v6 in my car soon

btw spetz, A dude from perth claims on (car domain ) to have ran a 13.2 with a 6a12, no doubt lsd, in a mirage, using haltech engine management. The hatch is prob 50 kg lighter than our cars, but I'd say, don't give up on the lancer just yet.. also yes eks look sick, but lancers look tight alwell

oh yeah, it say's 1500 hrs right there at the top of the pattern making page Well that dude isn't even the engine casting dude, he's the austin heally enthusiast dude that probably started the dmd company.. I gotta find out how to do this mould making stuff myself, that's the only way it's gonna happen. It's gonna take a while, I'm gonna go talk to that dude on the right of the photo, he could be enthusiastic about the idea for all I know I emailed both of those guys, maybe they don't know how to use a computer or something hahaha

BDHBT doesn't have the H22A in it anymore
The 12.7 was done with the new engine which is a K20A. I don't know it's specs but it is definately fairly worked but unsure how much.
I heard even cams were done.

EGK20A is great, but then again...
HRD2BQT's car done 14.3
1120kg with no driver
EGK20A 860kg WITH driver
Lancer 2.2 60ft
EG 1.7 or so I think
EG has quad throttles, full exhaust full standalone
Lancer had full exhaust and pod filter
EG has short ratios, lancer hasn't


In a way, I think a 2 litre MIVEC of 12 years ago might be a more powerfull engine than a 2 litre VTEC YO!!!!! of today. I mean, realistically just taking 0.5 seconds off your 60ft time is say 1 sec ET
So, already 13.3 for the lancer (roughly)
Then, take away 300kg of weight from the lancer
Mate it with a short ratio gearbox
Add ITB and full standalone...
Geez somehow maybe the MIVEC would do a better time than 12.3??? Maybe I don't know though


EK's look way tougher than CE's!
But maybe this is just from me watching Honda video clips racing all the time. Go check out the JUN or Buddy Club EK's
OMG sex on wheels!

More lancers/FTOs/Mitsubishi's should be done up JDM style I think


Anyway, back to topic, I don't think spending money on a lancer is a stupid idea. Actually I think they are a much much better car than people give them credit for. And the alloy block would be good for someone who is already rebuilding their engine, and say it was within 2-3 grand.


PS. I have driven a CE 1.5 with full whiteline handling kit and the EG with same mods (pedders springs though)
The lancer definately outhandled the EG, very very easily at that
But still it's front end grip under power was worse?
I don't know how but Honda have almost eliminated what you normally get in FWD (not really but compared to other FWD cars I have driven)

droidy wrote:btw spetz, A dude from perth claims on (car domain ) to have ran a 13.2 with a 6a12, no doubt lsd, in a mirage, using haltech engine management. The hatch is prob 50 kg lighter than our cars, but I'd say, don't give up on the lancer just yet.. also yes eks look sick, but lancers look tight alwell

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I heard/read about that mirage too

I think it had more than just Haltech. Had full exhaust, extractors etc and apparently was stripped completely
And I doubt it would get close to 13.2 without some sort of serious tyres

With slicks, in such a light mirage, good driving, those mods and a good condition engine I think it's fairly doable

mirages are about 960kg stock i think

spetz/droidy - would that alloy control arm from the evo fit in the fto you know??

FTO/Lancer suspension is interchangable

Also, Evo III rear suspension fits Lancer/FTO
Evo IV+ suspension fits but needs Evo IV LCA at the rear

Michael Schumacher may be able to tell the difference in weight distrubution in the 4cyl V v6 war, but for the other 99.9% of people (including me) cant tell the difference. Just the same as if you have a passenger in the front, can you tell the difference in handling to when you are by yourself?? yes it does tecnhically move the weight frowards, but its not much. I weighed the V6 before I put it in my lancer and it weighs exactly 22kg more than the 4g93.

bitmore weight on the front helps with that darn push anyway

Is 22kg it?
hmm
I can say that I did notice the handling difference with the engine conversion though


I will get a friend with a 1.8 lancer to get his car weighed the same place I did and post back the results

idawina, you're car is a sedan! That's why you don't notice.. it's totally different in terms of weight distribution to a coupe. Well done on the swap though, diy deserves cred. Are you happy with the performance? I hope you are happy with your car, it looks clean. That's interesing that you've posted up that the v6 is 22 kg heavier than the 1.8. You don't seem to think that's much, to me that is a lot!
Yeah I assumed spetz that that Mirage had headers, exhaust etc, if he'd got a haltech. Still, pretty good... I wondered if bdhbt had gone k20! I saw a photo of the engine bay from a weird angle, and thought, what the, that aint a h22??!
Egk20a- I don't know how it can possibly be that light??! Just because it has cf hood, no aircon/ powersteering?!?!?! I think engine management makes BIG difference wether VTEC YO!!!!!/or mivec..
I think there should be more jdm style fto's lancers too- highly underated in looks- you don't see many jdm style lancers/ftos, -my car bout to change that
In terms of weight reduction, yeah it's not easy to get an alloy block, but as an example of other options for weight reduction....
hood 11 kg
battery 12 kg
air con pump 10kg
control arms???
headers??
I weighed the first three things on that list, but obviously, bit hard to tell what control arms weigh... but regardless of fto or lancer, I think the evo arms= big difference.
So there you go, if you get a carbon hood, remove air con, remove battery, you can loose about 30 kg from the front of the car- not a bad start.
Furthermore idawina, the v6 might be 'only' 22kg heavier than the 1.8, but the point I've been trying to make is, that given that that engine also has an iron block, it ain't that light to begin with given the relative small size of it- not as light as it could be anyway.
I was thinking today, what we need is a contact at mmc Japan- get you're hands on the original mold for the galant 6a13 block- then you wouldn't have to do all the patternmaking
I'm starting to wonder how much the fuel tank would weigh.. take it out and just use large mortorcycle tank, from a Honda gullwing or something Continuing on weight reduction theme, door cards, 2-3 kg each! Doors- bout 18kg! Boot- 10-11 kg.. evo boot, half weight- custom cf doors? Save bout 25kg at least.
spetz, was your's and the civics boot stripped out when you weiged the back?
Well if I get a chance, tommorow I'm gonna try and catch this pattern making guy and find out the low down on this engine moulding stuff- still on an engine that was in production only a few years ago, Mitsubishi prob still have the mold- they would have had to produce the original block somehow. Getting to it is another story

I doubt Mitsubishi will send you a mould!


EGK20A is that light. This figure is what I remember, I could be wrong (it's on ozhonda) but for sure weight with driver is under 900kg

Which is only about 100kg less than my friends B16A EG hatch
K20A weighs less than B16
Carbon bonnet, no air con, power steering maybe?
No seats bar driver seat, all trim, sound deadener taken out, roof lining etc

I mean, getting 100kg out of a car I think is easy, but it just becomes uncomfortable


Yes both EG and my car were weighed with nothing in the boot (no spare, no subs nothing) and both were very low on fuel
The scales go up in 20kg increments too so there is obviously a bit of error
What I was thinking would be a good idea for a track CE is get a 4G15 from the new MIVEC colts, turbo it (or get the turbo version already) as these blocks are already alloy. The new Evo X block, still a 4G63 will be full alloy as well. And I wouldn't be surprised that this would be a cheper alternative to getting a custom V6 alloy block done.


I really think the V6 would weigh more than 22kg over the 1.8. Did you weigh the gearbox? I assume this would be similar weight though
Handling is most definately effected by the conversion though. My car handled fairly well before the conversion, but understeered considerably though, but had no rear swaybar. After the conversion I had the FTO rear swaybar fitted, and at low speeds the car felt more responsive and direct, but once pushed that extra weight was noticable.

So, "only" 22kg but even with a rear swaybar it still handled worse than with the 1.8 and no swaybar

Being a sedan must make a difference because it feels the same to me! maybee the 40kg spoiler on the boot makes a difference? and the downforce it makes?? who knows really! as spetz says, when it gets to the stage of trying to shed that much weight, you must consider the cost v benefit factor. At what stage do you stop wasting money on making it lighter and buy a faster car to start with?? up to the owner I suppose........

Have you been to the strip lately? I saw on the lancer forum that you've run a 15.5 on a slightly wet track.. I'm aiming for a quicker result than that.. but I like my 'econocar'! It's unpretentious, light weight, (gonna make it lighter) and I like the looks of it,- I've had it since '99 so I'm very attached to it. I think the car has amazing potential and is underated. I'd rather engineer my own whip than buy a Nissan or evo like everyone else.
I don't think there's anything clever or cool about spending 60 or 80 thousand dollars on a lancer or civic or fto or whatever- the people that do that are people like 'Mr Crx' and look where he get's the funds to do so- not someone I respect. In terms of weight reduction, it doesn't cost anything to remove things yourself. When it comes to cf- I might have a go at making it myself, cause I have some experience with this. And with the alloy block- I'd like to have a go at the pattern making myself- as a hobby type of thing- that's why I'm gonna talk to the Austin Healy guy, as soon as I have a chance.
The alloy block 1.5 from the colt would be fun- just to see how it goes! I wish I had one to chuck in just to findout. I did go for a fang with the bonnet removed altogether- and I tell you, even 11 kg over the front wheels made a HUGE difference! I was amazed how different it felt cornering, responsiveness when you put the foot down- and it pulled up much quicker and harder! i swear to god, I couldn't be imagining this> I've stripped the whole interior before and you can notice the difference, but it feels so much different to drive a fwd car when you start removing weight over the front wheels. Imagine if you could do all of these things, hood, battery moved, control arms and engine.. the results would be amazing, I think.
Anyways, all alloy engines look way sexier than iron, feels better to drive too

By the way, I'm on a farm at the moment so I didn't break road rules

about spending 60 or 80 grand on a car: thats not the unrespectful thing for me being so fortunate to have the money, its that its spent in such a hurry on the car that makes the whole thing look so not well-thought-out

theres a guy called Spektor on mogwa.org droidy who has a lancer cc with the 1.6 mivec 4 cyl motor, dohc i think, if thats the alloy motor u mean maybe ask him how it goes.... i think his 1/4 mile is around high 15's. but i dont know if theres much more power that he can get out of the motor - hes tryed the worlds roughest cams (figuratively speaking) and quad tb's and it sounded like a fully setup race car on idle and especially screaming past pit straight on a track day on wide open trottle. hes putting a stage 1 cam in it now i think for drivability though.

pretty much the same route i wanna go with my own car...... just enough performance not to affect daily driving, and just enough comfort/gadgets not to affect performance

I don't think the 4g92 mivec motors have alloy blocks.. spetz was reffering to the 1.5 engines in the new colts, the ones that look like a Honda Fit/Jazz having all alloy motors.
I've been trying to find more info on the 6a** series of engines- one page I found says the 'a' in 6a** refers to the block being aluminium! Then, at the bottom of the page there was a footnote that said "some of the 6a** engines had iron blocks, who know's with Mitsubishi." Some? All the 6a12 or 6a13 engines I've seen have iron blocks! But maybe, just maybe, some where over the rainbow in that majical, mystical place we like to call jdm, there are 6a13 blocks that are alloy! OMFG, I think I'm having a joygasm now