Unique: Throttle Bodies|Intake Plenum and Manifold

[smorison]

no FPR needed the car runs rich as it is...

i'd wanna make sure before leaning the mixture out .... youre probly right that its tuned rich outta the factory but on individual cars, i'd be scared of saying that more fuel isnt needed ....

simon

i guess you could be right there... easiest way to tell is when you dyno your car to prove the gains to yourself simply have them plot the AF ratios (they should have the AF sensor plugged in anyways)

about a year ago we put a FPR on my car to test it's worth and found a gain by leaning out the engine quite a bit... armed with this knowledge (and hoping everyone uses 98ron fuel) improve the intake plenum / manifold to flow more air shouldn't be an issue... (we then removed it)

keep in mind that my car already breaths very well at both ends so cars which are less modified will have even less to worry about

[Chiangstar]

about a year ago we put a FPR on my car to test it's worth and found a gain by leaning out the engine quite a bit... armed with this knowledge (and hoping everyone uses 98ron fuel) improve the intake plenum / manifold to flow more air shouldn't be an issue... (we then removed it)

really?? wow... thats interesting... i wonder why mitsu would tune it rich out of the factory... that would mean that its not tuned for max power and not tuned for economy either... maybe its a safeguard so when people mod the engine, it doesnt blow up heheheh

hmm...

simon

[ruchi]

Understand that this is deliberate and that the FTO is very highly tuned. Generally speaking, an engine which runs slightly rich will produce more power, but if it runs too rich then you'll run into problems.

[Chiangstar]

Understand that this is deliberate and that the FTO is very highly tuned. Generally speaking, an engine which runs slightly rich will produce more power, but if it runs too rich then you'll run into problems.

hmmm but steve said they leaned his car out to get more power....which means that it was excessively rich... since max power is reached at a richer mixture than stoichiometric, if it had to be leaned out to reach max power, then it must have been way over the economy mixture...

simon

[ruchi]

I guess Steve will have to answer that, but here's a bit more info that might help.

The FTO is tuned based on the parts it contains and based on the use it was designed for. If you begin replacing parts this will alter the tuning of the car which can effect things such as A/F ratios. Likewise if you add aftermarket computers to it you can more finely adjust A/F ratios and other factors which relate to it. Similarly, if you drive the car differently to what the Jap's designed it for, you can also personalise it to your needs.

In short, if you have after market mods, an after market computer and access to a dyno, you will be able to tune the car to produce a better result than what the factory did. Having said that, the changes will be more along the lines of "tweaks" than anything dramatic as the car is already so highly tuned.

[G_A_V]

chainstar dont you have extractors as well ?? if so then id suggest you go for a fpr anyways.
I wouldnt expect that the fto should need a fpr because the throttle boddies are only bored out the tiniest bit, i would only expect a 1-2kw gain max, but combined with the rest of the uniqe in take mods, you would have one very healthy intake system gaining a total of close to 10kw @ the wheels.
I read in an article (one of the turbo fto articles may be the zoom one) that the fto fuel systems is on of the most oversized systems in a stock motor. That there is more then enough fuel pressure on standby for what, which is why we get such good throttle responce.
though when ever having more air on standby (after market throttle bodies) a fpr is required, i dont think in this case that it would be neccsarry.
though with all of that put asside, Steve/Fto Australia/Unique will not sell a product until it is fully tested. and their dyno/tunning garage is top notch, and i am sure they will test to make sure the fuel/air ratios under high throttle, on multiple cars, especially before steve endorses it, so rest assured and let the mods roll in

[smorison]

all manufacturers tune engines to run rich to protect the engine from its drivers... they don't tune them to run stupid rich like 9:1 however they are tuned pretty rich GTST's for example run between 10:1 to 11:1 (can't remember the exact figure) up the boost on a GTST and you change the AF ratio automatically.

by leaning out the engine we don't mean run at 14:1 on a dyno... we would most likely tune using a VAFC to something like 12.5:1 or there abouts so that when its on the road the AF ratio is about 13:1 (you can not replicate on the road conditions in a dyno room unless you have a wind tunnel). it will then be driven around on the road with a AF meter plugged in to get a real world figures....

the system as far as we can tell the fuel system on the FTO its pretty capable of handling minor changes such as extractors / engine pipes / exhaust / new intake systems... why? cause the OEM ones are pretty damn good to start off with and there's bugger all restriction there...

new intake plenum / manifold we're not sure how well the new ecu will manage it which is why i'm finally getting motivated to install my VAFC (well using this as an excuse anyway).. the Injectors are definately up to the job...

as we've increased the flow rate by about 10% the whole way into the engine there should be an increase in power and torque ... how much we don't know yet as it hasn't been installed or dyno'd... it could be a huge difference it could be massive it just depends on how much the engine is being starved of 02...we could find that we can pump in a heap more air into the chamber or it could be only a bit... the on car testing will show us this....

however as we have new cams in production... having a intake that allows more air will probably provide better results once the cams are installed. My design thoughts on the cams were to leave the low speed as is (or maybe a minor tweak to improve lowdown torque)... and aggressive changes to the highspeed cams to get as much out of it as we can... allowing more air in and being able to compress it further will create some pretty good results....

unfortunately it looks like we are only going to have GR cams ready for race day so it will be quite interesting to see how the GR compares to the MIVEC... knowing that Rob's suspension (tein v's whiteline springs and kyb shocks) is worth about 0.5-1.0 second advantage around wakefield

[Chiangstar]

chainstar dont you have extractors as well ?? if so then id suggest you go for a fpr anyways.

yeah i do have an FPR already ... it was more of a suggestion to the other owners out there just to check A/F ratios before going nuts with mods ... i'd hate to see people leaning out and blowing up their cars

FTO's breaking down or blowing up is generally not good for the fto community and maybe a bit dangerous too...just a tiny bit

simon

[G_A_V]

i ws thinking more about this today, and im not completly sure but cars that run lean produce less pollution right ??
so also considering the fto was only released in japan, and the amount of air pollution there, maybe it was designed that way to
a) produce less pollution
b) be able to handle polluted air without blowwing up
i may be wrong though, just a thought

[wildfaye]

Hi just wanna do a check, a FPR(fuel presure regulator) is something like the SARD fuel regulator which can adjust the amount of fuel that is injected into the engine?

May I know what is the stock fuel pressure that is used?

Becos I have a Sard regulator which i can use to adjust the pressure.

Does anyone have a 'pressure' that effectively put in the correct fuel, improves power and also reduces fuel consumption?

I would like to benchmark the stock pressure and adjust accordingly to acheive max benefits!

Thanks!
Sam

[smorison]

Does anyone have a 'pressure' that effectively put in the correct fuel, improves power and also reduces fuel consumption?

I would like to benchmark the stock pressure and adjust accordingly to acheive max benefits!

Thanks!
Sam

depends on your mods sorry... the correct pressure will be in the manuals somewhere ... i'll look it up if i get time....

best way is to tune on a dyno with a AFR sensor... you can then adjust it for best power / pressure...

[wildfaye]

thanks! Let me know soon k?

Becos i smell petrol fumes and i feel that its running too rich. hmm.

nope, no petrol leaks anywhere!

[Chiangstar]

ok this has been bugging me for a while...

will an FPR just change the PRESSURE of the fuel supply or will it change the amount of fuel supplied?

the name suggests that it only changes pressure but i have been talking to some people that think it is used to adjust ratios....

my understanding was that if you use it to increase pressure, you can potentially get a better combustion because there are no fuel lags at high rpm

simon

[ruchi]

In simplfied terms, the fuel pump gets the fuel out of the petrol tank and sends it towards the engine. The fuel pressure regulator then controls the flow of this across the fuel rails to the injectors. The injectors then spray the fuel into the cyclinder. That rate at which this occurs and the ratio of fuel to air is controlled by the ECU.

Upgrading the FPR or injectors is a "capacity" i.e. it will only provide a benefit if the existing ones are not supplying enough. To get the engine to a point where it requires more fuel than what the injectors and FPR can provide would require some SERIOUS engine mods.

[smorison]

no FPR needed the car runs rich as it is...

i'd wanna make sure before leaning the mixture out .... youre probly right that its tuned rich outta the factory but on individual cars, i'd be scared of saying that more fuel isnt needed ....

simon

your right... which is why i say to check with a dyno for power gains and AFR ... doing both before and after tests....


who knows you could find out that your Fuel pump is almost dead before you make the mod... being an unrelated problem it could create a major problem if the mixture is leaned out any more by making the intake breath better.

[Chiangstar]

In simplfied terms, the fuel pump gets the fuel out of the petrol tank and sends it towards the engine. The fuel pressure regulator then controls the flow of this across the fuel rails to the injectors. The injectors then spray the fuel into the cyclinder. That rate at which this occurs and the ratio of fuel to air is controlled by the ECU.

Upgrading the FPR or injectors is a "capacity" i.e. it will only provide a benefit if the existing ones are not supplying enough. To get the engine to a point where it requires more fuel than what the injectors and FPR can provide would require some SERIOUS engine mods.

so.... im right in saying that an FPR does NOT increase the fuel supply (like larger injectors would)? but rather an FPR makes sure there is sufficient fuel in the rails so when you put your foot down there is no or little lag...

in other words, an FPR CANNOT be used to make a mixture richer/leaner

...right?

simon

[smorison]

so.... im right in saying that an FPR does NOT increase the fuel supply (like larger injectors would)? but rather an FPR makes sure there is sufficient fuel in the rails so when you put your foot down there is no or little lag...

in other words, an FPR CANNOT be used to make a mixture richer/leaner
...right?

simon

throttle response is definately improved by a FPR
this rest is half right / half wrong

if the fuel pump can generate a higher pressure than what the stock FPR requires putting in an aftermarket FPR and increasing the pressure will push more fuel through the injectors (to a point) this can be used to run a small amount of boost on stock injectors.

at the same time a FPR can be used to reduce pressure to decrease the fuel delivered via the injectors if you want to lean the car out.

make sense?????

[ruchi]

- An upgraded fuel pump can supply more fuel to the FPR
- An upgraded FPR can supply more fuel to the injectors
- Upgraded injectors can supply more fuel to the engine
- The ECU controls the injectors and the air/fuel ratio

So an upgraded FPR will increase the fuel supply to the injectors, but without larger injectors and modifications to the ECU's fuel mappings, the same amount of fuel will still be supplied to the engine.

All these parts on a car have a large enough capacity to supply fuel to a car even under the most extreme acceleration. It is only when the fuel requirements of the car increase dramatically due to SERIOUS engine modifications that you would need to upgrade these to still have the capacity to meet the fuel requirements of the engine. Until this happens it is pointless upgrading these parts as you will ge NO benefit.

[smorison]

the following links may be of interest to some people

http://www.mcbrooms.com/volvo/injcalcs/injcalcs.htm
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h20.pdf
http://www.240sx.org/faq/articles/fuel_ ... tor_wo.htm

[smorison]

So an upgraded FPR will increase the fuel supply to the injectors, but without larger injectors and modifications to the ECU's fuel mappings, the same amount of fuel will still be supplied to the engine.

that's not entirely true as increasing the line pressure will force more fuel through the injectors... this isn't an infinite increase rather its probably somewhere around the 10-15% mark over what it is said that the injector rate is...

there is a hard limit where no matter what pressure you put the fuel under it simply can not be made to flow any faster (unless you cool it and make it denser) and then the only reason its flowing more is becuase the molecules are closer together... but evenutally you'll hit the brick wall again.