For god sake!!! why you have to oversteer!!!!!

Post by **vipfto** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:20 pm

Cat wrote:Well, I have not read so much rubbish in years........... most entertaining, keep it up.

I think what he is saying is that he finds it hard to belive you have oversteer when in most cases on FWD incl FTO generally it suffers from understeer

Criss · Post by **Criss** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:40 am

hands on heart, 100% truth =[

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:42 am

vipfto wrote:
Cat wrote:Well, I have not read so much rubbish in years........... most entertaining, keep it up.
I think what he is saying is that he finds it hard to belive you have oversteer when in most cases on FWD incl FTO generally it suffers from understeer

I donâ€™t disbelieve the FTO can oversteer at all; I just find it very hard to believe anyone could recommend putting 40psi into the rear tyres of a FTO............
The FTO doesnâ€™t generally suffer from understeer or oversteer when set up correctly, its neutral handling one of its best characteristics.

There are two main causes (well now it seems like three) of oversteer when it comes to the FTO, the most common one is cheap or just plain poor quality tyres, it makes a massive difference to the light rear end of the FTO. The second is having the rear toe parallel or toeing out (often the result of lowering without re-alignment), and now it seems tyre pressure is also a culprit. There is absolutely no reason to put 40 psi in the rear tyres on the FTO, doing so will seriously reduce grip.
Initially the correct tyre pressure is calculated by contact patch area over weight, increasing rim diameter alone does not alter the contact area (the overall diameter of the tyre is very close to original), increasing the width of the tyre will increase the contact area, which actually requires a drop in tyre pressure, but with the changes in contact patch area we see when going from 205 to 235 a change in pressure is not required.
Some people have found when going to a 35 or 30 series tyre on the FTO they suffer from knock off deflation (where the bead is dislodged when hitting a pothole or bump) and raising the tyre pressure by several PSI reduces the chance of this happening, yes it does but it also reduces the ability of the tyre to mould to the road during cornering and by forcing the centre of the tread outwards (ballooning) the contact area is reduced, both resulting in less grip.
Some people using road tyres on race tracks also found their tyres would overheat when pushed hard in the dry, resulting heat cycling the tyre to the point it lost grip, they found increasing the tyre pressure would slow the heat cycling enabling them to stay out longer, but by increasing the tyre pressure they just reduced its grip and this lack of grip was reducing the heat being put into the tyre, their problem wasnâ€™t tyre pressure it was tyre choice, they were using a road tyre for track use instead of a track tyre.
There is a pattern of misconception when it comes to car handling, lots of people will mistake over stiff suspension and overinflated tyres for better handling, yes the car will give more feedback with over inflated tyres and will feel lively but this is not better handling, it is worse.
Proving this to some people is difficult, its human nature to have difficulty perceiving anything better than they think is possible. If they canâ€™t tell the difference, how can they tell one is better than the other, e.g. Most drivers when driving a car with ground effect would swear it handles worse than a car without, it doesnâ€™t, they just canâ€™t drive it fast enough to tell the difference.
I use my car on the track quite a lot (understatement) and my tyre pressures are (on track) 32F 24R and (off track) 32F 28R, it does not understeer or oversteer and it would seem the next limitation of its handling is how well the hubs are fitted to the car.......
Summing up: If you want good handling, Donâ€™t buy cheap or poor quality tyres, get the 4 wheel alignment done correctly, donâ€™t buy expensive poor quality coilovers just because they are â€œcoiloversâ€

SchumieFan · Post by **SchumieFan** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:47 am

wtf? any idiot, or any driver of an FWD or FTO knows it under steers...

add a 6A13TT and 10psi of boost and u got an FTO that'll drive itself into a tree FGS

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:55 am

SchumieFan wrote:wtf? any idiot, or any driver of an FWD or FTO knows it under steers...

add a 6A13TT and 10psi of boost and you got an FTO that'll drive itself into a tree FGS

Yours may do but it doesnt have to........ what has fitting a turbo got to do with this thread......... bit random.

SchumieFan · Post by **SchumieFan** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:13 am

um... your sayin a FWD car doesnt 'haveto' under steer????

ok... you know physics right???

the whole bmw hate fwd because theory...

and adding a turbo to a fwd would only make the car....

okay now you just fkn with me right???

and if you've read my last 1900 or so topics you'd know I'm immensely OT but useful... (must be my engineering/FTO background)

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:33 am

I can set up my FWD FTO to neutral four wheel drift for the track, the under steer is countered by introducing some controlled over steer....So no it doesnâ€™t under steer.

Oh I know my physics just fine......

BMW drivers hate all other cars, not just FWD, RWD is easier to set up and drive, having over steer is no quicker way through the corners.

Of course adding more power to a FWD car makes it under steer more, but this thread has nothing to do with that...........

Yes I'm fkn with you....... but only if you think putting 40 psi in your tyres is going to make it handle better.

and if you have read any of my seven or eight thousand post on the FTOOC you would realise I really do know what I'm talking about, (must be after putting a FTO around the NÃ¼rburgring for 13,200 km achieving sub 8:30 laps)

SchumieFan · Post by **SchumieFan** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:41 am

Cat wrote:I I really do know what I'm talking about, (must be after putting a FTO around the NÃ¼rburgring for 13,200 km achieving sub 8:30 laps)

ooooooooooooooo wow im impressed... hang on, let me cut off my balls and hand them too you on a silver platter...

no wait...

thats in your dreams...

as with all internet banter.... proof!

8:30 round nur with a neutral fto...

riggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttttttt

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:15 am

Last trip was at Easter, I took 27 FTOOC members over with me, many of which have had passenger laps at one time or another....
There is only one in car video on youtube, but it is part of a old tyre warming out lap (early 2007) 8:45 as it was with the old tip box. YOUTUBE LINK. Videoing is banned there and not a good idea for Jahreskarte holders as you can get banned for doing so...
Photo of FTO during power on controlled over steer.... (this was during a sub 8:30 this year)

Do you like balls cooked or is raw acceptable.......

oodLes · Post by **oodLes** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:09 am

Rofl Schumie got smashed.

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:27 am

Nah, he was just "fkn" with me.......... I like his banter...

Being a Ferrari fan he might recognise my helmet........

Post by **Bennoz** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:46 am

Criss · Post by **Criss** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:53 pm

cat, thank for your information, reali learn so much=]
btw i not the one who put cheap ass tires at the back=]
as you point out, it might be the alignment problems,

maxleng · Post by **maxleng** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:07 pm

ok so definitely over steered today

(note road was wet, not raining at the time but it had been previously) turning right at the lights was going pretty quick to make the light and as i turned the back end started to slide out but i let go of the throttle and corrected it and it came back fine.

Ive noticed that in the wet i get massive over steer (second time the back end has slid out without me meaning to do it) i don't know if im carrying too much speed through the corner or it's just the fact that it's wet and the roads are much more slipery. Never over steered in my old 1.5L lancer and i use to give it abit, but i dont think my lancer could get anywhere near the cornering speeds of my fto even if i was being gentle on the fto

Post by **aza013** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:10 pm

well yes to much speed in the turne and also you would be pulling the wheel around to fast changing the center of gravity pushing the car out.
FWD cars pull out of a turne not into it

slow in fast out and smooth on the stearing wheel will fix your problems, beter still get your ass down and book in to an Advanced driving Course

http://www.ianluff.com.au/retail

maxleng · Post by **maxleng** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:21 am

i see..

wouldn't mind going to a adv driving course but there abit expensive

ps. i don't know if you made a typo twice, but it's 'turn' not turne lol

SchumieFan · Post by **SchumieFan** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:59 am

lol...

thats not a neutral fto... thats a fkn hot fto

anyway... no fto will roll out of the factory and oversteer, no matter what tyre size or pressure, so if it is, youve bent something or someones been playing with something for whatever reason. and yes for anything with a low profile 40psi is recommended on all 4, anything less is a comfort thing, i run 38psi in my 18's on my sx4, simply because sydney roads are sh*t! (although thank christ they have resealed george street, bent 2 rims in those holes)

koolio1234 · Post by **koolio1234** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:50 am

8min 30sec around Nurburgring....nice

Thats a big "f**k you" to all the FWD haters out there.

SchumieFan · Post by **SchumieFan** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:57 am

so its caged and got handling upgrades, but whats under the hood? i dont spy an intercooler...

and whats ya helmet? arai gp jetf or something?

edit: ps, just watched the vid...

premo!

smashed the subbie through the corners...

but i definatly saw some understeer!

Post by **aza013** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:29 pm

maxleng wrote:i see..

wouldn't mind going to a adv driving course but there abit expensive

ps. i don't know if you made a typo twice, but it's 'turn' not turne lol

mmmmmm so you put a price on safty

as for the typo thats just me I cant spell for sh*t

but yep I was not thinking about it at the time when I did that the "e" just slipped in there