Next engine mod, for roughly $1000

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:29 am

It's not that I don't think the cams will work on stock internals, I think they will.
But, as it is now peak power on the 6A12 is at 7500rpm from factory.
Now, with the mods I have I am sure this will be now closer to 8000rpm.
So, getting cams without internals and standalone ECU to raise the rev limit seems pointless? As peak power wont be made until after the factory cut out.
PLus cams are too expensive. With springs and stuff, and calculation/engine testing, and billet blank cam copies + grinding them is huge $$$
And then even with internals for higher rpm will need custom gearbox parts for that to cope with 10,000rpm cut out
In the end of the day I am sure this is a $10,000 job as a minimum.

In fact, I was talking to my current engine builder and he told me if I want an insanely powerfull engine, he can build it for me for about $25,000

Post by **Bennoz** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:08 pm

Yeah it wouldnt be cheap - but having said that, just because you've put heaps of 'mods' on the motor doesnt necessarily raise the redline point

When your designing cams, YOU make the call where you want the power. Take a ute for example, redlines at 5,000rpm with peak torque at 3,000rpm. Why? Because the cam was designed to give power at that range.

I've been through a number of differing cams in other motors & its all about where you want the power. My old man for example has a full blown Kent 310 scatter cam in his mini - he makes about 140hp at the flywheel, and the car is absolutely undrive-able on the street. It wont start pulling till you get to 4000rpm, and it redlines at 9,500rpm - my mini on the other hand has a Kent 286 fast road / rally cam. I make almost the same horsepower as he does but my power range is from 2,500rpm to 6,500rpm. I used to run a cam like that, but as you say, my internals had to be bullet proofed to cope with that. Running around at 9,000rpm all day certainly does not endear longevitiy in any motor.

My mechanic has a 12 second quarter running Torana - he went for a Stage 3 Crow cam - why? Because it gave him the best mix of hp & torque in a useable range. He could have gone for a Stage 7 which delivered only 10 or so more hp, but at 10,000k.... and the torque was down on what he has.

Different applications call for different designs, inlet & exhaust opening times, phase angles & lobe design etc its a science in itself... and thats the big problem with FTO cams - no-one has played with them & knows how to change the design for more power without loosing streetability. With every up there is a down. The only people that I'd consider sending an FTO cam to would be someone who has played with VTEC YO!!!!! designs....

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:25 pm

SG wrote:
if u want big numbers...u need a new engine...if u want a fast car u need rwd or awd.
common lol, your insulting everyone who is spending money on their fto to make it go fast cos its their dream

everyone knows Mitsiman (RPW) owns a daily-driven 11sec fwd magna with the standard engine and 2 hair dryers

a fast car for me is low 14 seconds cos thats all i want for motorkhana/superkhana racing, and i dont wanna go turbo if i dont have to because the engine needs a rebuild in any case.... so im personally interested in spetz ugprades

Its a general rule mate. and yes I do read fast fours and see that there are some decent FWD cars out there.

I too wish him the best for is mods and hope he gets some serious numbers...will be awsome.

as for Bens point above...thats what we were saying before...more power - but where?? best examples are a lot of the purpose bulit dyno cars...try drving one of them on the road - let alone getting it to the road! no point point putting 500kw through the wheels if u can't use it...big numbers are not the go...average power accross the engine rev range will see u get good performance from a car under normal driving conditions.

anything that will help u increase low down torque will be a good mod in my opinion since the FTO has none.

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:48 pm

But Bennoz,
What I was trying to say is, with small capacity engines to make power you need either, or both boost, OR very high rpm

So my point being, without doing internals to raise the redline, what is the point of cams? It will just make peak power later... where the engine will never rev out to
Sure maybe 10kw can be had by getting slightly upgraded cams, but it'll end up costing like $300 per kw which is not worth it.
If I had internals and gearbox to suit, I would go some relatively wild cams, so that peak power would be around 9,500rpm
With MIVEC I think it would lack low end torque, but still be drivable

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:38 pm

dunno really but doesn't this mean u need to really thrash the car for all your performance? which is not os bad...its fun takng it to the max!

JayME · Post by **JayME** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:51 am

Personally I think there is still to much "theory." and not enough put into practice with this engine of ours - Well from info ive tried to find anyway

There is some VTEC YO!!!!! engines making impressive power NA - surely its possible with the 6A12

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:22 am

If you guys want to make a "spetz fund" I would be more than happy to oblige.

That way, you guys can see what power a worked 6A12 will do with stock internals

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:30 am

spetz wrote:If you guys want to make a "spetz fund" I would be more than happy to oblige.

That way, you guys can see what power a worked 6A12 will do with stock internals

it will be very intresting to see. We are all hoping u get some decent results - so we can copy u

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:14 pm

Well since everything has been done to the engine besides cams and internals
You guys should make a fund for me, for cams (and maybe even internals) and then see what the 6A12 can do

And I can be happy in knowing I have the highest tuned 6A12!

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:30 pm

ya...would be really intresting to see the results - get it back together man!!

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:41 pm

I will soon
Just at the moment I haven't given final instructions to the builder of what I want and it can't be put back together.

I am unsure what to do with the intake.
A. Use the 5mm oversize Magna TB and machine the stock plenum
B. Cut the runners shorter, get rid of the variable length intake manifold, and weld a new plenum on

payaya · Post by **payaya** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:41 pm

theres only so much you can do to make a 2.0L quicker. Put everything into context the FTO is quick but quick only against its competitors.

With newer cars coming out which have nearly 200KW and 400NM stock then theres a problem. I dont see how gaining 2kw here and there is worth while unless your going on the track.

Why are some of you's spending so much money on gaining a couple of KW?? I seriously dont see the point.

Dont get me wrong the FTO is a good car, but spening so much money on gaining so little just confuses me.

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:29 pm

I just want a quick NA and I wish I had a Honda

BuCkEt · Post by **BuCkEt** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:53 pm

spetz wrote:I just want a quick NA and I wish I had a Honda

That's what I used to say champ. For all the money you're spending you could be well on your way to an Evo, something I know you never freakin shut up about.

SG · Post by SG » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:17 am

payaya wrote:Dont get me wrong the FTO is a good car, but spening so much money on gaining so little just confuses me.

THATS how much we love our FTO's!

barfy · Post by **barfy** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:23 pm

Spetz u sound like where im at with my car looking for more power...

Instead of spending more money on a car that struggles to get decent power from mods i opted in getting an EVO7....

Maybe you should look at selling up and spend some money on a car that will give u some decent power in return.

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:08 pm

Well my car is a lancer not FTO
So, it is lighter than an FTO which is already an advantage

After this, I think I will stop with power, and just focus on other things. Maybe respray, retrim, ICE, more suspension

But realistically I should have a 13 second car in street trim