Suspensions and traction issues

Quattro · Post by **Quattro** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:46 pm

Hey, i was wondering how you guys go with understeer and front wheel drive launching. Through tight twisties do you find the car pushing wide or losing traction????

Same with traffic light drags??? not that we condone that behaviour

I know the FTO has a good basic handling package but what about at its extreme, ie going through the Black Spur or something?

GPXXX · Post by **GPXXX** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 7:31 pm

i have taken off my strut brace and drove at 110kph on a 60kph sweeping rd and the backend tends to get a little nervous... since i put it back on, the car seems to keep its composure better through the line. sure made a big difference to the handling... (even just on std shocks)

as for traffic light drags, well.... i'm a very good boy on the road, heheh!

MADFTO · Post by **MADFTO** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:32 pm

I don't find understeer that much of a problem to be honest. Then again I'm using azenis and they grip pretty well =)

Launching has a tendancy to torque steer, it's also hard to get the power down initially from the traction loss of the car lifting.

All in all though, it's pretty good.

Mind you, I'm in a GPvR =P

Chiangstar · Post by **Chiangstar** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 10:18 pm

for your understeer get a beefier rear sway bar...i got a 22mm adjustable whiteline sway bar and fitted it with poly bushes and it doesnt understeer anymore....even when hammering it hard thought the national park or old pacific highway....

its the best handling mod ive ever done....highly recommend it...

as for launching, ive heard that the castor kit (aka antilift kit) helps this...i dont know how...ive never really bothered to look into it...but ive got one and am gonna install it soon...ill let you guys know how it goes....

GPXXX · Post by **GPXXX** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 10:53 pm

Chiangstar wrote:for your understeer get a beefier rear sway bar...i got a 22mm adjustable whiteline sway bar and fitted it with poly bushes and it doesnt understeer anymore....even when hammering it hard thought the national park or old pacific highway....

its the best handling mod ive ever done....highly recommend it...

dude, how much did you pay for the rear swaybar? I'm getting a Whiteline rear swaybar fitted as well (maybe next week).

SilentBob · Post by **SilentBob** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 11:34 pm

Swaybars and suspension upgrades such as the Whiteline kits are also a possibility on my 'want to do' list

SilentBob

rxboy · Post by **rxboy** » Tue Aug 12, 2003 11:45 pm

I've got Bridgestone Potenza GIIIs all around (which have excellent road grip even in the wet) but I still find the rear end tends to get away when going fast straight through roundabouts. I don't race the car, but maybe I'll consider the swaybars too

MADFTO · Post by **MADFTO** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 12:19 pm

strut brace goes across the top of your suspension towers.

Sway bars go across the bottom.

Sway bars I believe are torsion springs that reduce the roll of a car by linking the two struct towers together, while braces are just a metal bar to prevent the towers from flexing inwards when the suspension compresses.

GPXXX · Post by **GPXXX** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 2:06 pm

jerrin wrote:is a sway bar and strut brace the same?

GPXXX: is your strut brace on the top at where the engine is or is it at the bottom? how much did it cost u to get it?

my strut braces are mounted on top (one in the engine bay across and one in the boot)

the car already came with the Cusco strut braces when I bought it from Japan...

Sway bars are on my next agenda coz at the moment i prefer a little' less body roll on sweeping corners... anybody have any clues how much this will set me back and where i can get this done (in Melbourne)??

Jono · Post by **Jono** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:46 pm

ive got tein's all round, with neg camber at the rear's . ive only found understeer when going into a corner too hot, Exit corner acceleration is fine , it just pulls in pulls.

jono

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:08 pm

I just today did an advance driving course and boy did the FTO suffer from understear. On the skidpan I was almost the slowest with the car not wanting to go round the courners whilst the porsches and MX5`s were hot going sideways and the boring WRXs just kept straight.
Any further advice on how to reduce the under stear greatly appriciated.
Jeff

Jono · Post by **Jono** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:29 pm

what setup do you have on your car already?

how much are you willing to spend?

GPXXX · Post by **GPXXX** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:48 pm

Jeff wrote:I just today did an advance driving course and boy did the FTO suffer from understear. On the skidpan I was almost the slowest with the car not wanting to go round the courners whilst the porsches and MX5`s were hot going sideways and the boring WRXs just kept straight.
Any further advice on how to reduce the under stear greatly appriciated.
Jeff

i'd get some serious swaybars fitted at the rear...

MADFTO · Post by **MADFTO** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:26 am

Just make sure they aren't too serious . . . you'd start getting a looser back end if the swaybar is too thick, understeer is controllerable in FWD setup, oversteer is less so, and is harder to get out of once it starts =)

Of course I'm talking about the rear swaybar in this case . . . having a stiff front swaybar will promote understeer. =)

Ah, the subtleties of suspension =)

elmo · Post by **elmo** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:06 pm

OK you got me on this one. I thought understeer is the tendancy to have to keep turning the wheel as you go round the corner, is that right???
If this is the case, all you have to do is turn the wheel harder, ok it takes more force but the car sticks to the road like glue. Unless you enter the corner way fast, it should not be an issue. Like 70k straight through round abouts is ok but cant go much quicker than 50 if turning cause you get too much angle on the wheels and they slide. Apart from round abouts I have never had anytrouble with front wheel slides/traction loss while moving etc.
OK the back fishes where ever it wants sometimes, just point the wheels and keep going, as long as the front sticks your ok.
Can do a particular corner at 100k now, after a bit of practice, used to only be able to get 80. Not bad when the yellow sign says 40

Just point and go, the back will follow.

D-TRAIN · Post by **D-TRAIN** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:05 pm

Hmm, I never thought of having a front swaybar to cause understeer.

I always thought the purpose of having a swaybar at the front is to help you get out of situations where the tail of your car is shifting out around a corner? Like Elmo said, to be able to correct the line, and point and shoot out?

GPXXX · Post by **GPXXX** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:33 pm

D-TRAIN wrote:Hmm, I never thought of having a front swaybar to cause understeer.

I always thought the purpose of having a swaybar at the front is to help you get out of situations where the tail of your car is shifting out around a corner? Like Elmo said, to be able to correct the line, and point and shoot out?

if the front swaybar is thicker/stiffer than the rear, yes it will cause underster... but if the rear swaybar is thicker/stiffer than the front, then it will promote oversteer. this is the reason why it is important to find a good balance between the front & rear to achieve a neutral handling to assist better cornering and grip.

RallyMad · Post by **RallyMad** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:46 pm

Hi everyone, you'll actually find that it all depends on how you drive too. Push way too hot into a corner and any car will under steer, this knowledge comes from driving formula fords.

I don't know much about FTO's cause I haven't bought mine yet, so thanks for all these thoughts, their teaching me a lot.

However my TX3 rally car has a front strut brace and a 30mm front sway bar, it's huge. I've got nothing in the rear, and I can tell you it definately doens't understeer, only digs in and turns hard under acceleration.

MADFTO · Post by **MADFTO** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:17 pm

Hmmmmm, what elmo was describing is what's known as torque steer.

The effect of swaybars prevent the car from rolling on it's longitudal axis.
Honestly, I'm not sure the mechanics of this (Been meaning to do some research into it, anything after this is conjecture) but if the sway bars are too large, I believe that the car will lose some of its ability to absorb impacts and undulations in the road, therefore you'll have the effect that the tires will not be able to grip the road as effectively.

Therefore if your front wheels have less effective grip, you're front tires will begin to skate when you push it to the grip boundary . . . and you'll understeer.

Same effect for rear wheels but since your front wheels are going where their pointed but the rear wheels don't want to follow and start skiding, it'll give the effect of oversteer (basically the same thing happens when you encounter power oversteer)

As I said, I don't know the exact nature of sway bars and their effects on handling but the explantation I've typed above is what my brain produced after looking at a few cause and effects . . . if someone could correct me, please do as I'm interested in the mechanics of sway bars.