6a12 limits

[Taz]

Hey all, so while im still saving the $$ and waiting to get off my green P's soon (been on P's for 4 years!) im starting to think about options about what can be done.
The 4g conversion is still alive with me i guess but im wondering if i should pour this much money into a fwd car, spend the money to convert it if it can be road legalized, or just buy another rwd/awd car and work on that - but i do love my FTO very much and dont want to do this.
I dont want to turbo the fto - its been done, and lets face it turbos arent as exciting as they used to be for me
Ive narrowed it down to supercharger or 4g really and have been pondering on the charger for the last few days, watched a few vids of some on youtube in the UK (who i think might be Rob's?) and if it can be done, with relative ease and money (considering, i still know its going to be a wild journey of headaches and 2minute noodle weeks ) i would like to give it a shot.
WHICH brings me to the reason for this post. With everyone who has turbo'd the fto, or has experience etc, im curious as to what the safe limit of boost a stock internal 6a12 can handle. Im assuming its going to be about 8, definitely less than 10 i would think. The follow up for that for all the tuner junkies who will read this is what is the weakest link. What would i replace in order to slowly get the engine rated for higher hp. Im thinking rods/rod bolts, gaskets etc would be but i havent done any research on the 6a12 so i dunno. Trying to i guess foolishly cost out how much this thing is going to set me back other than the original costs, and if im going to have to go with complete forged internals and the likes (hyperbole here) then it may not be worth it. Surely someone can understand my 3am gibberish and post a helpful reply
I WOULD like to eventually run at around 15, but 6-8 is more realistic until i win the lottery - but still its nice to know what has to be done in order and costs being laid out so i know if eventually its going to be worth it, or if im just going to pour 6-7k into a 6ps setup and find it doesnt satisfy me somehow.
The leprechaun on my shoulder is yelling louder and louder so i need to get to bed before he wakes up the neighbours.
Ill leave this to the trolls and vultures to deal with while i sleep, im sure a few of you are going to criticize my 3am gibberish and probably inaccurate and poor knowledge on this topic

[d_dan]

I ran 7psi on a stock engine.
9psi with lowered compression (shim plate)

The weak point is the conrods.

my plan was to go for forged rods and standard pistons but ended going the whole 9 yards because its just not worth doing it twice.

[spetz]

I think most people will tell you that you're better off with a 6A13TT or 4G63T conversion.

[Taz]

I think most people will tell you that you're better off with a 6A13TT or 4G63T conversion.

Definitely not going 6a13, and if i go the 4g its going t cost a lot more and there is a lot more involved. Would prefer to go with the charger if its worth it before i pour a good 20k into the dark.

Hmm if 9psi was the limit for stock without going the full monty
Forged rods n pistons are roughly 3200 (going off rpw prices), adding that onto the 3k for the charger itself, the belt, all misc stuff i cbf thinking of right now, an intercooler eventually if im going this path its all adding up. Although the benefit of doing this over a conversion is i can run 7-8 now and wait till i have the $$ to up the booooost.

Thoughts anyone - whats your opinion on this?

[phunkydude]

It all depends on how much cash you got and how much you are willing to spend for this.
After you've set the above, everything will comes clear as there aren't much viable options available unless you're still dreaming of something like ej20t + awd which leads you to nowhere but to start another thread with never-ending new ideas to discuss.

I thought you already bought an evo and a rex?

[spetz]

You can get a 4G63T conversion for about 7K.
Sell your MIVEC motor etc and maybe about 6K.
I don't see you doing a decent turbo conversion for less, and in the end the 63 will be more powerful, more reliable, more tunable, and better overall than a turbo'd MIVEC motor.

[aza013]

And to add to the above, you can go any auto shop to get parts for it .

[Taz]

phunky, i was looking at wrx's for a while, wanted an ej20, was a phase i guess, but i never got one cause i still had my evo and i couldnt part with my fto to buy one.
evo aint doing much lately, it cant be road legalized and there seems to be less and less viable entries in my area (at lakeside and willowbank) so im starting to think to sell up to do up the fto or buy another street car or perhaps a nice bike i dunno ill deal with that when im bored of it.
spetz - not going turbo, going to supercharge if thats going to be the route.
you really think i could get 6k for my current engine bay? here i was thinking maybe the motor for 1k maybe and 500 tops for misc - not much demand for engine parts these das as dwayne pretty much has it covered lol, but hey if anyone wants to buy it for 6k? ill start the conversion tomorrow
The only problem i have with the 4g would be either fwd 4g which would ruin a great engine for me or a awd conversion - which there is much debate whether it can be engineered in QLD, and the costs involved with an awd conversion. Im all happy to throw in the engine, hell i could even rip the 4g out of my evo (the horror!) but again, is it worth all that engine orgyness in a fwd? hmmmmmmmmm
and 7k would be nice, i projected atleast 10k minimum to get it running let alone everything else i would need pretty much right away like boost controller etc
Either way, there will be detailed supercharger or 4g conversion thread for my peeps to follow
and at my current pay rate this will be early to mid next year

[Taz]

I think you all just want a decent 4g guide
and @ azza, i get all my stuff from Japan anyway, while i do know a guy at nengun and RHD is cheap enough already, i dont mind paying that little extra to keep my car as JDM as possible lol

[Taz]

Much of the 4g conversion rests on if i can find a decent engine for less than both kidneys and a lung. I have my mechanic lined up for it and as far as im aware is still coming over in dec/jan, so if i can find a nice already tuned 4g out of a written off car in good nic then thats going to speed up the process quick smart
OR i could just charge say $100 a copy of my guide to a 4g converision. Pre orders only. cash. upfront.

[Rob Furniss]

I'm not sure that i'm on youtube - that may well be Steve Johnson in the UK who's using an ogura supercharger as used on the toyota corolla.

I ran 7.5psi and occassionally saw 8 flicker up on the gauge, that was on standard internals and standard compression.
Before this I was told that 6-7psi was the limit, i'm not aware that anyone has tried really pushing it to see how far you can go.

On my next supercharged project i'm aiming for just over 8psi on standard internals and standard compression - if it blows up we will know and I will be on the lookout for a replacement engine (this is all if the missus lets me do this again!)

If you want to know what 7.5psi gives you well it brough my 1/4 mile time down from 15.4 to 14.0 which really isn't bad for a tip! It was already the quickest non-forced induction tip in the uk before I charged it. I reckon it was capable of a high 13 run too but unfortunately last time I went to the drags before selling it the heavens opened so I didn't get a chance to run (had just fitted new polly engine mounts and stripped the aircon out and fitted semis).

For me I would go down the supercharged route again for sure over turbo, but that's just me.
What I will say is if you want to upgrade later it will be a pain as most of the chargers have specific mounting points on them so it's not easy to go from say an Eaton M45 to an M62. The limit of an Eaton M45 (as used on mercs and mini coopers) is around 8psi and that's over-spinning it with a smaller pulley so you don't want to be at the top end of the rpm range all day long.
If you want a lot more boost later then one of the rotary chargers like Vortech or Rotrex may be a better option as I believe they can run higher boost.

Like D_dan said conrods are supposed to be the weak link and if you've ever seen them in the flesh - well there's not much to them on the FTO they are really quite puny.
But even with forged everything a bad tune can bugger things up just as easily as not having forged components particularly at high boost.

What I don't like about the turbos is the amount of heat that they generate, a supercharger doesn't generate anywhere near as much so you don't have to worry about melting cabling etc. Good thing though is the cheapness, availability and upgrade options for increasing boost.

If you can hold on a while and I get my project off the ground then see how I go and what the costs come in at, you may be surprised.

Oh and if you want huge boost and power then check out what Richard Batty is up to over in the uk, he's put an evo engine in that's running 950+ horses, it's not too keen on his clutch though and tore it to pieces.

[Taz]

Youve got exactly the same mind about it as me Rob, and i was watching one on the highway with an instant 1/2 bar nd the sound it made - orgasmic.
I would like to run more than 8 - i guess my goal in the end would be 15-16 and as such i would probably buy something like a nice HKS GT charger and run it low till i can afford to dial it up to save me from eventually scrapping the first one and doing it all again. U say you puled out the aircon after you had already chucked in the charger? i thought aircon was something you had to sacrifice as the only real place to put one was up the front?
I dunno what im aiming for at this stage, its probably whatever comes first, 4g going to be much more expensive in the long run, i can see me going all out on it if i get it which is going to set me back like another 20 lol. If you can get a decent guide and rough price range by say march next year that may be what it takes for me to make up my mind - i do love my superchargers
But then again, i love my torque n horses - 950+ sounds great. If i win the lotto then im definitely shipping over either a Tomei genesis or AMS crate and well yea good times
(shame they both cost 15k+ spose its worth it in the end )

[phunkydude]

I got the full collection of Rob's ex-project on supercharging the FTO.

116 no. of pictures for the car build and 3 videos.

[Taz]

looks sexy enough, but im aiming for a lot less than 14.5sec - i was thinking that 15ps would give atleast low 13's - but im probably far off with that one? (assuming everything else has been upgraded with the charger on)
I think i might have to go the 4g then so i can squeeze out that 500+ to all 4, also a lot more fun tuning over a charger
Now we play the waiting game me thinks.
If anyone is after a 135k GPvR mivec engine or parts it will push my project forward a lot so let me know.

And Rob - dont suppose he made any kind of diary or videos etc etc that i can take a peek at that you have? Inspiration to the max me thinks

[bass_twitch]

I got the full collection of Rob's ex-project on supercharging the FTO.

116 no. of pictures for the car build and 3 videos.

Share please??

Edit:
Oops was on tapatalk, didn't realise there was a YouTube vid

[d_dan]

One benifit is the freeking awsome sound of a sc running

it really depends on your applucation. My engine can handle about 350 ponies id need new injectors and steel head gaskets. Slap a bigger turbo on and utll take about 500+ but none of thats any good if you cant get tge power doewn

[Taz]

My application...fast car. sc or 4g, its going to be fast eventually, with the 4g it has a lot more potential, but i can see me pouring more money than i probably should into it.
I think i might have to go 4g for the fact that it has more potential and would be pure awesomeness..covered in awesome sauce with a side helping of awesome.
Just the money factor again...ugh why can i just HAVE like a few mil lying round =/

[d_dan]

Im gonna ask you something.
Are you going to make it 4wd?
If yes by all means Get an engine that will give you a load of power at the end of the day.

But if your staying 2wd i would take whatever gives you 250- 300 bhp
Because your not going to get the power down where it matters. (the corners)

[Taz]

hehe thats the dilemma im facing. If i go 4g im going to have to convert it but with a charger i dunno i wont HAVE to i will just always want to
The only thing holding me back from the 4g is the costs involved with doing the awd conversion.
The other thing is if it an awd 4g fto can be engineered and legalized in QLD?

[Rob Furniss]

14.5 was before I switched intercoolers as the one I had on was shite, switching to a better flowing front mount knocked 1/2 second off.
And don't forget it was a tip so any gains are straight away hindered by the Torque converter, if it had been a manual it would have definately run 13's at 7.5psi.
14.06 was my best run.

I only removed the aircon later to save weight.
My mounting position was over the rear bank, I had to shorten the intake plenum to make room for it there.
And yes the sound was awesome, I do miss it.