Wcefan's FTO - Sparky's Woes

[wcefan]

Agreed. I still feel it is the stepper motor but the fact that it is still throwing those 2 error messages concerns me. Why did rpw only replace the one sensor and not the other?

For all the money you have spent with them they should be fixing this not you.

Sorry you may have said this before, is it tip or manual?

I have no idea why they didn't replace the other one. I plan to give them a call on Monday regardless to sort this out. They've had a week and a half to think about it and still haven't gotten back to me.

I have re-seated a lot of cables today so I best reset the error codes again and see what comes up this time.

It's a manual mate

[wcefan]

Disconnected and Reconnected the battery.
Got diag codes.
Exactly the same codes as previous time. Crank angle and the camshaft position sensors.

[aza013]

I have not looked at this but are the plugs the same? If so could they have plugged them in the wrong sensors?

[wcefan]

I have not looked at this but are the plugs the same? If so could they have plugged them in the wrong sensors?

Nah they are both completely different shapes

[Rob Furniss]

If they have replaced the ECU and the sensors and you are still getting those specific errors then hell I don't know what it could be other than the cabling between the ecu and sensors. I hope the sensors and ecu that they put in were good ones.

[wcefan]

So I took into RPW again beginning of this week and picked it up today. They replaced the camshaft position sensor (I don't know why they didn't before) and it appears to have fixed the issue. Although testing over the next few days will tell for sure.

Apparently the crank and camshaft sensors are somehow synchronised with each other. So if one fails, they both fail.

I'll update in a few days to let you guys know how it goes.

[Rob Furniss]

So I took into RPW again beginning of this week and picked it up today. They replaced the camshaft position sensor (I don't know why they didn't before) and it appears to have fixed the issue. Although testing over the next few days will tell for sure.

Apparently the crank and camshaft sensors are somehow synchronised with each other. So if one fails, they both fail.

I'll update in a few days to let you guys know how it goes.

Don't think that's true to be honest mate but hope it's sorted now though.

[wcefan]

Don't think that's true to be honest mate but hope it's sorted now though.

Yeh didn't sound right to me either when they were advising me about it. But ah well. They were going to charge me $650 for the new sensor and the labour. I argued about spending all that previous money with them upgrading and fixing the fto to then have this problem arise just a few days after picking it up and them not being able to resolve it the first time round. Anywho, we settled on $300 in the end.

Done about 120km since picking it up and so far so good.

[Mitsiman]

Just wanted to jump in on this and give some thoughts "From the other side"

First of all, I am glad the problem has since been solved. It was certainly a new one from me.

I couldn't understand why we had BOTH a crank and cam angle sensor failure as its very rare to have both fail at the same time. As it turns out, if you think it though, if a crank angle sensor fails, the vehicle won't get any rpm signals (As that is all the crank angle sensor does) and you get a single fault. But if the cam angle sensor fails, the ecu can't tell where Top Dead Centre of each piston is, so the ecu picks up two errors, one for the cam sensor and another for the crank sensor which is then not in synchronisation with the cam sensor anymore, hence hte jumping and surging around.

To be honest, I had no idea what the problem was origonally, especially as it was origonall intermittent and then when we replaced the ECU it went away. For the record, there was no cut wirong on either the origonal crank sensor, which we have now put back onto our spare motor or the cam sensor, which we showed the origonla unit to the customer. All we can beleive at this time is the origonal cam sensor wiring is quite brittle through heat and age, and we think the act of removing it when we did the work on the vehicle the first time, has disturbed the wiring and created a bad connection. Either way that unit is now been thrown away.

I have learn't over the years, it doesn't do any good to spend hours on a car trying to find the a problem, especially if you don't know what it is. Sometimes you need to sit back and think about it a little and it will come to you. When we did get the car back we went through it with an oscilliscope and measured the output of the crank and cam sensor, which was how we found that the cam sensor wasn't putting out an even signal, it was "Skipping" and dropping a pulse randomly.

At least now if I ever strike a combined crank/cam angle sensor error again I will know where to look straight away. Normally when a hall effect sensor fails, it normally fails completely and just doesn't work. This was strange as the sensors appeared to be working properly.

I realise it was very frustrating for the owner but at the end of the day hopefully hes back to driving the vehicle happily and enjoying the improvements it has over standard, and no more oil leaks.

[wcefan]

I realise it was very frustrating for the owner but at the end of the day hopefully hes back to driving the vehicle happily and enjoying the improvements it has over standard, and no more oil leaks.

True dat. I'm sure it was frustrating for both of us. Despite the issues we had, you guys did a good job and I will continue to take my car into you guys for future upgrades and servicing.

Bet you're glad that pita is out of your workshop

How's the new mechanic working out for you?

Oh and btw 500kms and no issues. Thanks guys

[I8A4RE]

Why did rpw only replace the one sensor and not the other?

Thank you, thank you, I will be here all week lol.

[Mitsiman]

Why did rpw only replace the one sensor and not the other?

Thank you, thank you, I will be here all week lol.

Sorry I have no idea what this is supposed to mean?

I realise it was very frustrating for the owner but at the end of the day hopefully hes back to driving the vehicle happily and enjoying the improvements it has over standard, and no more oil leaks.

True dat. I'm sure it was frustrating for both of us. Despite the issues we had, you guys did a good job and I will continue to take my car into you guys for future upgrades and servicing.

Bet you're glad that pita is out of your workshop

How's the new mechanic working out for you?

Oh and btw 500kms and no issues. Thanks guys

New mechanic is working brilliantly - he was the one who actually diagnosed the problem not myself. He has a lot more experience in eletronic circuitry and design and saved me many hours of work trying to isolate the problem.

[I8A4RE]

Why did rpw only replace the one sensor and not the other?

Thank you, thank you, I will be here all week lol.

Sorry I have no idea what this is supposed to mean?

Maybe that from 3000km and over the internet, I could blatantly see where the problem was but your workshop couldn't and you're charging people money for it.

You probably didn't even work it out till you saw my post and went "Oh the OTHER sensor".

[Mitsiman]

The reason why the cam angle sensor was not origonally replaced because on the initial inspection of it we couldn't find anything wrong with it. Additionally when the ECU was replaced the problem went away whicj indicated it was not a cam angle sensor failure at that time.

The only reason the crank angle sensor was replaced, was not that we found anything wrong with it, but because of the amount of work to get to it, we didn't want to take a chance so we replaced it whilst we had the covers off with a 2nd hand one just in case.

The cam angle sensor was easily accessible at the top of the motor.

When the vehicle first came in, remember that we checked it and replaced the ECU with another one and the problem went away. At that point we all beleived the issue had been solved so to what advantage would there have been to replace the cam angle sensor?

As for this thread, I only found it two days ago so no, I was not working upon your advice.

[I8A4RE]

YOU'RE f**ken PATHETIC.

You charge a customer 5.5k to do all this work and within 300km, it starts hopping around and playing up. He comes back to and you don't even f**ken test drive it, you just tell him to come back when the engine light comes on.

RPW had a quick look at it (of course without and engine light coming on, you aren't going to get a diag code from the ECU). They asked me to keep driving till it happened again.

He doesn't even get a 1km down the road, THEN you decide to start testing it, clap, clap.

You get two errors on sensors, replace only one (facepalm) then decide to replace the ECU. For fucks sake, what is this? Amatuer Hour?

NOW FOR YOUR LAST POST!! My comments are in blue

The reason why the cam angle sensor was not origonally replaced because on the initial inspection of it we couldn't find anything wrong with it. Initial Inspection? So you never tested it. Well you do know more than the ECU, I suppose.

Additionally when the ECU was replaced the problem went away whicj indicated it was not a cam angle sensor failure at that time.And you replaced the ECU because????

The only reason the crank angle sensor was replaced, was not that we found anything wrong with it, Of course you didn't find anything wrong with it, you would actually have to test it to find that out!but because of the amount of work to get to it, we didn't want to take a chance so we replaced it whilst we had the covers off with a 2nd hand one just in case.

The cam angle sensor was easily accessible at the top of the motor. Yeah easy fix but there's no money in that or are you going to admit it wasn't about money, more about stupidity

When the vehicle first came in, remember that we checked it and replaced the ECU with another one and the problem went away. At that point we all beleived the issue had been solved so to what advantage would there have been to replace the cam angle sensor?YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE REPLACED THE ECU IN THE FIRST PLACE, and clearly for this exact reason.

As for this thread, I only found it two days ago so no, I was not working upon your adviceWell maybe you should have..

[Mitsiman]

Don't we all love a good argument. Gets the juices flowing. Purely now for the sake of arguing - I am happy to respond. You will also note that at no time have I resorted to your language nor your level of antagonism. I think in reality you are the one that is now looking pathetic But here are now my answers in red - I am sure you will enjoy them.

YOU'RE f**ken PATHETIC. - well I think we have this once covered who is the pathetic one

You charge a customer 5.5k to do all this work and within 300km, it starts hopping around and playing up. He comes back to and you don't even f**ken test drive it, you just tell him to come back when the engine light comes on.

RPW had a quick look at it (of course without and engine light coming on, you aren't going to get a diag code from the ECU). They asked me to keep driving till it happened again.

-

He doesn't even get a 1km down the road, THEN you decide to start testing it, clap, clap. - the car comes in, we checked the car, its running fine, no check engine lights? What exactly would you have us do? Just arbatarily begin pulling components off the car in the HOPE that we find something wrong? The car had just driven in driving fine? I await your eternal words of wisdom as to what we could have done right at that point other than to tell him to drive it some more, either two things would happen the problem had either gone away or a check engine light stays on for us to know what the problem is?

You get two errors on sensors, replace only one (facepalm) then decide to replace the ECU. For fucks sake, what is this? Amatuer Hour? - the ecu was replaced because we could not find a fault with the sensors, and two have TWO completely seperate sensors fail, on seperate circuits, with there own seperate wiring? We were looking for a commen source of problem. Changing the ECU immedietly resulted in the vehicle running properly and no further check engine lights?

NOW FOR YOUR LAST POST!! My comments are in blue

The reason why the cam angle sensor was not origonally replaced because on the initial inspection of it we couldn't find anything wrong with it. Initial Inspection? So you never tested it. Well you do know more than the ECU, I suppose. The sensors were tested to check they had power, earth and produced a signal. No faults were found on them

Additionally when the ECU was replaced the problem went away whicj indicated it was not a cam angle sensor failure at that time.And you replaced the ECU because???? Already answered above

The only reason the crank angle sensor was replaced, was not that we found anything wrong with it, Of course you didn't find anything wrong with it, you would actually have to test it to find that out!but because of the amount of work to get to it, we didn't want to take a chance so we replaced it whilst we had the covers off with a 2nd hand one just in case.

The cam angle sensor was easily accessible at the top of the motor. Yeah easy fix but there's no money in that or are you going to admit it wasn't about money, more about stupidity Again already covered - at that time no faults could be found on the crank or cam angle sensor, and explanation as to why the crank sensor was replaced has already been stated.

When the vehicle first came in, remember that we checked it and replaced the ECU with another one and the problem went away. At that point we all beleived the issue had been solved so to what advantage would there have been to replace the cam angle sensor?YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE REPLACED THE ECU IN THE FIRST PLACE, and clearly for this exact reason. The ecu was replaced to see if there was a commen source problem, and when it was, and no further problems found we beleived the problem had been found. Remembering the vehicle was then test driven in our shop, and drive for several hours before the errors popped up again.

As for this thread, I only found it two days ago so no, I was not working upon your adviceWell maybe you should have..

I agree then I could have used your obvious skills to solve the problem

[Mitsiman]

In hindsight it was not the best idea to respond to this discussion as it has only exasperated the argument. I wish to apologise to everyone on the forums as I probably should have not responded as I did to the comments thrown back at me. I still stand by what I have stated but this provides no benefit to anyone and only creates badwill and ill feelings.

So again, sorry to everyone on the forums, and is probably best if the topic is locked down. I actually came onto the forums to let everyone know about our new mechanic and a monthly special but got sidetracked on this discussion instead.

Hopefully no long term ill feelings as a result of what has been said to date.

[silverGPX]

*eagerly awaiting simons response*

[Taz]

*pulls silver back a bit from the firefight and tells him to let this run its course*

[Lawso]

Inb4 lock?