6a13TT vs 6A12T vs Supercharging vs V8 vs Everything else

martyjer · Post by **martyjer** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:27 pm

Nice one bennoz, clears up those calculations for me. I would have always regarded mine as losing power through firstly her age, and secondly through the transmission, never got her dynoed cause I like telling people when they ask that shes a 200hp car, which technically she is, she just doesnt put it out right now.

Has anyone actually ever supercharged an FTO? Cause we were chatting about it one day and one of the mechanic lads reckoned it would be better for the FTO, I know theres tons of turbos and transplants out there but would be interesting to see how a supercharged one compared to them.

sublime19 · Post by **sublime19** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:14 am

martyjer wrote: Has anyone actually ever supercharged an FTO?

Lol, ask Ben. He almost pulled it off through a bit of costly trial and error.

Post by **I8A4RE** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:20 am

martyjer wrote:Nice one bennoz, clears up those calculations for me. I would have always regarded mine as losing power through firstly her age, and secondly through the transmission, never got her dynoed cause I like telling people when they ask that shes a 200hp car, which technically she is, she just doesnt put it out right now.

Has anyone actually ever supercharged an FTO? Cause we were chatting about it one day and one of the mechanic lads reckoned it would be better for the FTO, I know theres tons of turbos and transplants out there but would be interesting to see how a supercharged one compared to them.

Yeah mate there is. In actual fact a member on here has a pic of FTO with a pretty incredible setup. I did look at going S/C before going the turbo root and it just looked to expensive and a lot more stuff that i would have had to get experts to do. However this picture i have seen looks straight forward and i wouldnt mind having a go at it one day......

Maybe after the evo conversion lol

FTEvolution · Post by **FTEvolution** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:30 am

sublime19 wrote:
martyjer wrote: Has anyone actually ever supercharged an FTO?
Lol, ask Ben. He almost pulled it off through a bit of costly trial and error.

Heh yeah, it makes for an interesting read

Clicky -> http://www.ftoaustralia.com/modules.php ... pic&t=5778

He was damn close, then suddenly

Simon is right, super has the torque load right off the mark. turbo has to spool.

But with only 5psi on a properly sized turbo (as in not something like a 35/40) in an FTO would spool pretty damn quickly, wouldn't be a hell of a lot of difference between them.

Also, a super robs power from the engine to actually spin the blades inside the super. Again (like the rex gearbox example above) it is called parasitic loss. The idea though is that the super more than makes up for it by forcing a healthy chunk of air into the engine.

IMO I prefer a turbo, as, again IMO, the turbo uses waste gases to create boost. In essence it a more efficient way of creating power. One thing though, people are having a lot of trouble comparing turbo to super, ends up just being theory. People just don't have the inclination to adequately test, if anyone has a link to a proper test, please post it up.

Money no object perfect testing environment would be to get a turbo and super with the same size compressor impeller and housing. Then dyno test both at say 5 psi on the exact same engine with the same (if possible) ecu settings.

Supercharger that I mean

Same housing etc as a turbo, hence why would be good for testing

I think that the SC would have far better response, but across the entire rev range there would be more power and torque with the TC (once on boost of course), possibly more at top end too.

Post by **Bennoz** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:55 am

FFS, here we go again... all he wanted to know was whos' car makes what power & we're back onto turbo / supercharger conversions. Stick to the f#%ken topic!

FTEvolution · Post by **FTEvolution** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:23 am

Bennoz wrote:FFS, here we go again... all he wanted to know was whos' car makes what power & we're back onto turbo / supercharger conversions. Stick to the f#%ken topic!

If you don't like it, the door is

Go pick another crappy emoticon why don't ya :supergay:

DAMN YOU! you went and changed your *~delightful!~* lol emoticon on me! :facepalm:

least that one still works

sublime19 · Post by **sublime19** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:14 pm

Bennoz wrote:FFS, here we go again... all he wanted to know was whos' car makes what power & we're back onto turbo / supercharger conversions. Stick to the f#%ken topic!

LOL.. always the way.

martyjer · Post by **martyjer** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:18 pm

Aw man I was getting to the end and expecting to see the big happy ending and then it just all stopped.

That would have been some project Ben! Could always mount it Mad Max style like the Interceptor out through the hood.

So out of all the ways of powering up an FTO, it seems that S/C is not really an option (yet), so which is the best between turbo and 6A13 (or other) transplant? Cause I see that a good few of ye have one or the other.

koolio1234 · Post by **koolio1234** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:16 pm

martyjer wrote:Aw man I was getting to the end and expecting to see the big happy ending and then it just all stopped.
That would have been some project Ben! Could always mount it Mad Max style like the Interceptor out through the hood.
So out of all the ways of powering up an FTO, it seems that S/C is not really an option (yet), so which is the best between turbo and 6A13 (or other) transplant? Cause I see that a good few of ye have one or the other.

Basically...

6a13 -->

4G63T -->

6a12t + Supercharger + v8 + anything else really -->

martyjer · Post by **martyjer** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:39 pm

In a nutshell. Thanks.

pete_gpx · Post by **pete_gpx** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:41 am

koolio1234 wrote:
martyjer wrote:Aw man I was getting to the end and expecting to see the big happy ending and then it just all stopped.
That would have been some project Ben! Could always mount it Mad Max style like the Interceptor out through the hood.
So out of all the ways of powering up an FTO, it seems that S/C is not really an option (yet), so which is the best between turbo and 6A13 (or other) transplant? Cause I see that a good few of ye have one or the other.
Basically...

6a13 -->
4G63T -->

6a12t + Supercharger + v8 + anything else really -->

Possibly ask Sam, Simon and, oh, I don't know, at least 5 other members or previous members (and that's the few I've seen in my short time here) on here about giving the thumbs down for a 6A12 turbo?

Does the thumbs down for 'anything else' incorporate the worked N/A route?

Nice judgment.

Martyjer, the options that Mr. Koolio have given his approval/disapproval are not the only paths out there for a power hungry FTO driver.

Do some research (something Koolio might benefit from), there's plenty of information out there regarding turbocharged 6A12s, as well as plenty of modifications, some small, some big, to get the power flowing in an N/A FTO.

FTEvolution · Post by **FTEvolution** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:23 pm

Seriously, don't take Koolio the wrong way. If you have ever done an engine transplant and/or helped someone turbocharge a standard N / A mill, then you would know that the transplant is by far simpler.

Engine transplants (especially with these cars as the mountings between 6A12/6A13 or 4G93/4G63 are almost identical) are far simpler than turbocharging a standard engine as all you essentially do is plug and play (gross generalisation). Then just route the standard loom from the donor etc.

Turbo route requires fabrication of a manifold, mounting, oil lines, fuel issues, ANOTHER ECU AND WIRING. Oh, lets not forget tuning.

Bang for buck, the transplant is the better option. If you wanna be different, do whatever you want. But Koolio's opinon is valid IMO

Post by **I8A4RE** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:21 pm

I love how people who have done neither at so opinionated but i love more that people actually believe them

koolio1234 wrote:
Basically...

6a13 -->
4G63T -->

6a12t + Supercharger + v8 + anything else really -->

What the f**k are you talking. How can you thumbs down a 63% increase in power

Did you even read my thread? and thats without even enclosing the pod (which is even more important with turbo's) AND ONLY ON 5psi.

Didnt Mr C just run 170 odd kw on 7psi??????? and thats a manual.

6a12t vs 6a13t, i think both have their own challenges but 6a12 is cheaper and 6a13 has more potential

mr-charisma · Post by **mr-charisma** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:26 pm

I8A4RE wrote:I love how people who have done neither at so opinionated but i love more that people actually believe them

koolio1234 wrote:
Basically...

6a13 -->
4G63T -->

6a12t + Supercharger + v8 + anything else really -->
What the f**k are you talking. How can you thumbs down a 63% increase in power Did you even read my thread? and thats without even enclosing the pod (which is even more important with turbo's) AND ONLY ON 5psi.

Didnt Mr C just run 170 odd kw on 7psi??????? and thats a manual.

6a12t vs 6a13t, i think both have their own challenges but 6a12 is cheaper and 6a13 has more potential

217kwATW (Just over 290BHP) on 7 PSI
277kwATW (Just over 370BHP) on 16 PSI

Didn't do a run with the 14PSI mapping though

Hopefully with new spark plugs, better ignition system it should boost it back around the 306kw (410BHP) mark and then some..

Video's here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2IBeNs04BM

As for turboing a 6a12 engine .. I can vouch for Simon's turbo conversion, his Green Beast GOES! It was the straw that broke the camel's back that made me decide to bite the bullet & buy Jeff's Insane creation..

IMO, you don't NEED much more power than what Simon is running .. I haven't really found the need to put it up past 7PSI (Yet) & I think it's more than enough for day to day driving..

Unless you're on the track & are able to USE the extra power, especially in the top end range IMO there is no point to it .. I would say that Simon's FTO is nearing the limit of traction for a FWD car as it is & his turbo has a pretty quick spool time

Simon .. as you were saying about boxing the turbo intake .. have you done yours yet? & do you have any pics? I need to do something about mine.. should bring the temps down a little bit (i hope)

sublime19 · Post by **sublime19** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:40 pm

I8A4RE wrote:I love how people who have done neither at so opinionated but i love more that people actually believe them

koolio1234 wrote:
Basically...

6a13 -->
4G63T -->

6a12t + Supercharger + v8 + anything else really -->
What the f**k are you talking. How can you thumbs down a 63% increase in power Did you even read my thread? and thats without even enclosing the pod (which is even more important with turbo's) AND ONLY ON 5psi.

Didnt Mr C just run 170 odd kw on 7psi??????? and thats a manual.

6a12t vs 6a13t, i think both have their own challenges but 6a12 is cheaper and 6a13 has more potential

I wouldn't have given 6a12 a thumbs down, it's more the complications with pulling off turboing it right without probs.

Simon's one of the rare few people who've pulled it off and that definately deserves 2 thumbs up.

I think koolio meant to say the headaches involved in trying to turbo the stock fto engine is

Post by **I8A4RE** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:49 pm

Yeah i know what your saying subbie but i dont know where every is getting this opinion of it being difficult.

Just becuase sam's was the most written about doesnt mean that everyone experiences those problems.

Apart from sam, who else had major problems doing a 6A12T???

mr-charisma · Post by **mr-charisma** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:27 pm

sublime19 wrote:
I8A4RE wrote:I love how people who have done neither at so opinionated but i love more that people actually believe them

koolio1234 wrote:
Basically...

6a13 -->
4G63T -->

6a12t + Supercharger + v8 + anything else really -->
What the f**k are you talking. How can you thumbs down a 63% increase in power Did you even read my thread? and thats without even enclosing the pod (which is even more important with turbo's) AND ONLY ON 5psi.

Didnt Mr C just run 170 odd kw on 7psi??????? and thats a manual.

6a12t vs 6a13t, i think both have their own challenges but 6a12 is cheaper and 6a13 has more potential
I wouldn't have given 6a12 a thumbs down, it's more the complications with pulling off turboing it right without probs.

Simon's one of the rare few people who've pulled it off and that definately deserves 2 thumbs up.

I think koolio meant to say the headaches involved in trying to turbo the stock fto engine is

Mate, Simon isn't just "one of those rare people to pull it off" .. In fact I would say that the amount of people that have turbo'd their standard engines & succeeded (yes, even Mivec version) far outweigh the instances of people who have blown theirs up ..

I can only think of 2 people off the top of my head who have blown their engines because of force feeding them & in both cases, it was because of;
1.) Accident causing too much power to run through it
2.) Trying to run too much power / boost
3.) Neglect with regards to increased serviceability requirements

With the right amount of planning & consideration of issues that other people have come across & incorporating them into the design stage, and knowing the limit of boost that can run through the standard engine, there is no reason that it wouldn't work ..

I think it's stupid to tell people that if they have a GPX, or GPvR etc that they CAN'T turbo their car, or that it's too complicated .. and that they will have to replace the engine if they want more power.

As long as they're aware of any obstacles, costs & other issues involved & are happy with the power increases they will get, then I say go for it..

As for supercharging, I don't see any reason why this wouldn't be a decent option .. if anyone actually reads Ben's post you will see why it failed..

And when you can get away with an entire Turbo project for $6000 or less, just by getting your hands a bit dirty & outsourcing to experts for the stuff you can't / don't want to / can't be bothered learning do .. I don't see the problem.

mr-charisma · Post by **mr-charisma** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:30 pm

I8A4RE wrote:Yeah i know what your saying subbie but i dont know where every is getting this opinion of it being difficult.

Just becuase sam's was the most written about doesnt mean that everyone experiences those problems.

Apart from sam, who else had major problems doing a 6A12T???

the only other one I can think of was Ben's SC Project & his NOS project ..

Both of which were "accidental" (to some extent)

yano · Post by **yano** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:41 pm

I8A4RE wrote:I love how people who have done neither at so opinionated but i love more that people actually believe them

koolio1234 wrote:
Basically...

6a13 -->
4G63T -->

6a12t + Supercharger + v8 + anything else really -->
What the f**k are you talking. How can you thumbs down a 63% increase in power Did you even read my thread? and thats without even enclosing the pod (which is even more important with turbo's) AND ONLY ON 5psi.

Didnt Mr C just run 170 odd kw on 7psi??????? and thats a manual.

6a12t vs 6a13t, i think both have their own challenges but 6a12 is cheaper and 6a13 has more potential

To put that into perspective, an r33 runs 7psi stock and puts out 12o odd kws atw... The fto's figures are retty damn good i.m.o

mr-charisma · Post by **mr-charisma** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:45 pm

yano28 wrote:
I8A4RE wrote: Didnt Mr C just run 170 odd kw on 7psi??????? and thats a manual.

To put that into perspective, an r33 runs 7psi stock and puts out 12o odd kws atw... The fto's figures are retty damn good i.m.o

See my previous post

217KW's @ 7PSI