Tonne of Modifications coming, need some advice

mr-charisma · Post by **mr-charisma** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:47 pm

yeah, I've been thinking about doing that ever since Funky-FTO made their Dummie's guide paid version only...
Thought I would start with some basic mods & then write up some DIY guides & put it in a book... I totally forgot to download the content of the Funky-FTO site ... looks like they've taken it off the archive.org site now

mr-charisma · Post by **mr-charisma** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:54 pm

SG wrote:theres a recent post on ftooc about the throttle bodies... going from 60mm or whatever up to 65mm. someones done some back to back dyno tests (putting it on a dyno, doing a few runs, then putting the upgraded one on) and they reckon theres no difference.. maybe half a kilowatt. Think they even had the flange b o r e d on the plenum aswell... so I duno. Maybe you need the whole plenum b o r e d out, but i havent looked at one. The theory they had was that you need bigger cams to draw in the extra air, and thats why the GR has the 63mm.

http://ftooc.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t= ... sc&start=0

Is that with extractors fitted as well? From what I've read, you need to upgrade the extractors & exhaust to get the full benefit of the larger TB & manifold, you need to draw the air out as fast as you take it in.. that one won't neccessarily show benefits on its own, its the whole system working together.... Will make sure to read through that fully when I get home...

Post by **Bennoz** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:00 pm

Its the GX (facelifted GR post 97) that had the 63mm unit as a stock item

If you bigger than 63mm you need to port the intake mouth to match the TB. No major gains unless your punching in more fuel in the go with the extra air.

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:08 pm

Bennoz wrote:Its the GX (facelifted GR post 97) that had the 63mm unit as a stock item

If you bigger than 63mm you need to port the intake mouth to match the TB. No major gains unless your punching in more fuel in the go with the extra air.

thats correct. the ECU cant really adjust for the additional air, not that much anyway. So without a new ecu setup, just wasting your time. Spend you time getting cold air into the inatake and take it from there.

You cat is your biggest restriction. if u havnt sealed your CAI your wasting your time also.

mr-charisma · Post by **mr-charisma** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:09 pm

Bennoz wrote:Its the GX (facelifted GR post 97) that had the 63mm unit as a stock item

If you bigger than 63mm you need to port the intake mouth to match the TB. No major gains unless your punching in more fuel in the go with the extra air.

So if I go 65mm for TB I need 65mm for manifold? & Will I be running lean if I do this & don't have something to adjust Air/ Fuel mix, cause GPX has no way of measuring increase in airflow & adjust the ratio's?

mr-charisma · Post by **mr-charisma** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:13 pm

khunjeng wrote: thats correct. the ECU cant really adjust for the additional air, not that much anyway. So without a new ecu setup, just wasting your time. Spend you time getting cold air into the inatake and take it from there.

You cat is your biggest restriction. if u havnt sealed your CAI your wasting your time also.

hehe, now that is good, answered my question before i even asked it

SG · Post by SG » Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:11 pm

mr-charisma wrote:Is that with extractors fitted as well?

not sure if they had extractors fitted...

yeah meant the GX...

I think a FPR would have helped when they tested it, I've been told you might need one after you get extractors to help with flat spots.

jonowong · Post by **jonowong** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:37 pm

how come your not considering force induction?

mr-charisma · Post by **mr-charisma** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:48 pm

Hehe, not after seeing Sam's disaster

& hearing about other peoples dramas, especially turbo'ing a Mivec, don't need any complications ....
'tis not really for me anyways, am pretty happy with how much power the FTO has got, haven't been bitten by the turbo bug yet... just want to give it a little extra grunt & then improve handling .. I'm going to keep the car for a few more years, otherwise I wouldn't be spending any more money on it

Might consider getting a little *cheap* turbo car for thrills & putting in a bigger turbo & a few mods in a couple of years though.. but probably not for a while

Richy · Post by **Richy** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:11 pm

a recent post on ftooc about the throttle bodies... going from 60mm or whatever up to 65mm. someones done some back to back dyno tests (putting it on a dyno, doing a few runs, then putting the upgraded one on) and they reckon theres no difference.. maybe half a kilowatt. Think they even had the flange b o r e d on the plenum aswell... so I duno. Maybe you need the whole plenum b o r e d out, but i havent looked at one. The theory they had was that you need bigger cams to draw in the extra air, and thats why the GR has the 63mm.

i am not looking for peak power gain...but better acceleration / low rev performance...would this help

i hope it does, cos already asked david of rpw to include the 65mm tb with manifold in my order.

Richy · Post by **Richy** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:17 pm

Extractors
Full 2.5" Stainless Steel Exhaust w/high flow metal cat (mandrel bent)
Twin Mufflers
Brake Master Cylinder - 1" Bore upgrade
Brake Discs - DBA 4000 Series gold rotors 276mm
Brake pads - RB74 Racebrakes pads (depending on condition of current pads)
Braided Brake Lines
sitting here beating off out throttle body (65mm) (from ebay, not RPW)
New Front Strut Brace - Whiteline
New Rear Strut Brace - Whiteline
'Field' AFC - (Fairly Cheapo AFC unit, but hopefully should be okay)
Magnecor Ignition leads
New Iridium Spark Plugs (Next 5000km)

mmm... not trying to hijack this tread...but are there many ppl interested to get a set of RB74 / Comp2 pads, may be we can start a goup buy going??

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:30 pm

Richy wrote:
a recent post on ftooc about the throttle bodies... going from 60mm or whatever up to 65mm. someones done some back to back dyno tests (putting it on a dyno, doing a few runs, then putting the upgraded one on) and they reckon theres no difference.. maybe half a kilowatt. Think they even had the flange b o r e d on the plenum aswell... so I duno. Maybe you need the whole plenum b o r e d out, but i havent looked at one. The theory they had was that you need bigger cams to draw in the extra air, and thats why the GR has the 63mm.
i am not looking for peak power gain...but better acceleration / low rev performance...would this help

i hope it does, cos already asked david of rpw to include the 65mm tb with manifold in my order.

I would need to see both dynos results to comapre. You may still need a SAFC to compenssate. If your going to do what you are I wouldt be skimping on the SAFC/Piggyback.

Grue · Post by **Grue** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:39 pm

What are the current thoughts on piggyback, models and cost?

I'd like to keep away from a flashy unit mounted in plain sight that screams "Steal me!". Hmm... maybe mounted in the glove box....

EDIT: So many topics covered and still a coherent thread!

Nice

SG · Post by SG » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:40 pm

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/ ... pril07.jpg
the red line is the 63mm...

think your right about the SAFC2/piggyback

just reading the post again he said the fpr was set on standard pressure instead of 45psi or whatever you put it to. so it was a test of standard fuel pressure and input vs bigger TB intake... and no tuning involved, and he got the same hp... but then he tuned it with a SAFC2 and got an additional 9hp, plus some torque.

Richy · Post by **Richy** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:41 pm

I would need to see both dynos results to comapre. You may still need a SAFC to compenssate. If your going to do what you are I wouldt be skimping on the SAFC/Piggyback.

....meaning more $$. in that case, i will get the guys to put them on during my major service.....and till i save up some dollars for piggyback i might not see any results...

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:57 pm

SG wrote:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/ ... pril07.jpg
the red line is the 63mm...

think your right about the SAFC2/piggyback

just reading the post again he said the fpr was set on standard pressure instead of 45psi or whatever you put it to. so it was a test of standard fuel pressure and input vs bigger TB intake... and no tuning involved, and he got the same hp... but then he tuned it with a SAFC2 and got an additional 9hp, plus some torque.

that graph is ~140 kw atw. Who's FTO is that? I doubt your gonna get this form a NA FTO with a 6a12.

That being said, Ben has already stated air needs fuel to make more power. So yeah up the FPR and boom, bit more power. I do not like FPRs persoanlly unless its justified.

SAFCI/II is the cheapest and best upgrade when talking piggyback ecus. Keep it in your glove box if you want and mount it on the dash when you like, its just a box with wires. run it anywhere.

SG · Post by SG » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:13 pm

yeah was just tryna work it out givin what they said on ftooc

its nobbyv4's car.. but that graph is at the flywheel

http://ftooc.org/phpbb/garage.php?mode= ... 7198303988

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:29 pm

SG wrote:yeah was just tryna work it out givin what they said on ftooc

its nobbyv4's car.. but that graph is at the flywheel

http://ftooc.org/phpbb/garage.php?mode= ... 7198303988

yeah I assumed fly wheel. Just not usually calculated this why unless u have the engine out, pointless IMO.

Mitsiman · Post by **Mitsiman** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:31 am

Just some more info on some of the stuff I have seen here on mods.

(A) Throttle bodies - you are correct these don't make huge differences to power. Usually one of the last mods you do, and without good intake / exhaust a waste of time. But once those are done, and you have some sort of ECU tweaking, these can make a nice difference. But heres the crunch - the will still not make a lot of difference to peak horsepower.

BUT.....

They will make a nice improvement to throttle response, and torque. Note everything is about power. You can either bore out the stock 60mm factory unit out to 63/64mm or you can go for a retrofit one like the RPW 65mm unit (Which don't be mislead, this is a completely different model throttle body which flows better than its misleading 65mm size) but this does involve welding and porting to the intake manifold to work properly.

(2) ECU Tweaking. Honestly, I stil fail to realise why people persist in trying to tune a vehicle with the apexi safc units. Yes you can do some MINOR tuning with them, but honestly, grab the Emanage software, and actually see how much more adjsutable they are. You can do fuel and ignition, you have something like 16 X 16 tuning points, adjustable which is the key point.

They are roughly same price and the emanage is easy as to tune. You will probably make again the same peak power between an emanage and a apexi

BUT......

Again you will make more driveability, more torque, smoother power and torque curve with the emanage because you have more tuning points, and you can change the tuning points to smooth out the dips in the curve. And you have ignition timing.

Take it from a tuner who tunes FTO vehicles - spend a little more and do it. If you don't want ot use an Emanage, consider the Haltech Interceptor unit instead, has extra's like shift light outputs, duel mapping, the ability to change the mivec point if you wanted to etc

(3) When you do exhaust changes, especially extractors you WILL DEFINITLY need fuel tweaking. The mivecs are a MAP sensor vehicle, so they only register air pressure changes not volume / air flow. So increase air in / out and you lean the car out. The factory ECU has only limited adjustment and you quicly go past that.

FPR units massivly help for sure, but again nothing beats dyno time and even a basic Emanage on the basic airflow mapping only, makes huge differences.

Hmm thats all I can think about this moment but I am sure more thoughts will come.

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:56 am

Mitsiman wrote:Just some more info on some of the stuff I have seen here on mods.

(A) Throttle bodies - you are correct these don't make huge differences to power. Usually one of the last mods you do, and without good intake / exhaust a waste of time. But once those are done, and you have some sort of ECU tweaking, these can make a nice difference. But heres the crunch - the will still not make a lot of difference to peak horsepower.

BUT.....

They will make a nice improvement to throttle response, and torque. Note everything is about power. You can either bore out the stock 60mm factory unit out to 63/64mm or you can go for a retrofit one like the RPW 65mm unit (Which don't be mislead, this is a completely different model throttle body which flows better than its misleading 65mm size) but this does involve welding and porting to the intake manifold to work properly.

(2) ECU Tweaking. Honestly, I stil fail to realise why people persist in trying to tune a vehicle with the apexi safc units. Yes you can do some MINOR tuning with them, but honestly, grab the Emanage software, and actually see how much more adjsutable they are. You can do fuel and ignition, you have something like 16 X 16 tuning points, adjustable which is the key point.

They are roughly same price and the emanage is easy as to tune. You will probably make again the same peak power between an emanage and a apexi

BUT......

Again you will make more driveability, more torque, smoother power and torque curve with the emanage because you have more tuning points, and you can change the tuning points to smooth out the dips in the curve. And you have ignition timing.

Take it from a tuner who tunes FTO vehicles - spend a little more and do it. If you don't want ot use an Emanage, consider the Haltech Interceptor unit instead, has extra's like shift light outputs, duel mapping, the ability to change the mivec point if you wanted to etc

(3) When you do exhaust changes, especially extractors you WILL DEFINITLY need fuel tweaking. The mivecs are a MAP sensor vehicle, so they only register air pressure changes not volume / air flow. So increase air in / out and you lean the car out. The factory ECU has only limited adjustment and you quicly go past that.

FPR units massivly help for sure, but again nothing beats dyno time and even a basic Emanage on the basic airflow mapping only, makes huge differences.

Hmm thats all I can think about this moment but I am sure more thoughts will come.

Emanage is best. I have tuned with it and its great. The reason we suggest a basic AFC is becuase people seem to be a bit tight and dont wanna spend the cash...2nd hard ppl buy SAFCs for like 200...while the emange plus harness is much more. I say if your gonna do this stuff do it properly...or go a standalone

+1 for emange for me.