Legal Question

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Sparhawk
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Legal Question

Post by Sparhawk »

After speaking with a member of the Mitsubishi GSR/Evo Club here in Adelaide which is a financial club, I found out they charge a small fee to attend cruises. When I asked why the answer was something along the lines of "...because we are a CAMMS club, the money goes to insurance should anything happen whilst on the cruise..." and was further informed that if someone has an accident while on a "club organised cruise", they are not covered by their own insurance, hence the CAMMS insurance. (I think I heard that right anyway)

Now, we are not a financial club, and we have a more relaxed attitude toward our cruises. They tend not to be as big as some other clubs, but my query goes something like "If someone has an accident while on an FTOA cruise, are there any legal issues?". I mean you could just say its not an official cruise, but 1 check of this forum would prove it was organised by the club, and half a dozen FTO's together is hard to pin on coincidence (Unlike skyline s :lol: ).

Not that I plan on any accidents happening on our cruises, but better to be prepared just in case. This is the first and only car club I have ever belonged to so I'm not that familiar with this type of legal stuff. Hope someone here can shed some light...
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kazbah
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Post by kazbah »

We have a disclaimer that all people attending the cruise sign, even the passengers. This exempts the organisers from any liability should an accident happen.....
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Sparhawk
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Post by Sparhawk »

Can you pm me a copy please. Since I'm organising the next SA cruise, I want to be safe lol.
Also, this protects the club from any liability, but what about the individuals ? Are they still fully covered by their insurance ?
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Post by kid_dynamite »

The answers to your questions really depend upon the setup and structure of things.

CAMS affiliated clubs have the beenfit of receiving general public and products liability and professional indemnity cover for:
- motorsport events that are CAMS sanctioned
- non-motorsport activities arranged by the club (eg club meetings, social gatherings, etc)

Your example with the GSR/Evo cruise, they would be taking fees because CAMS requires fees be paid by non-financial club members, and then they come under the club CAMS public liability cover.
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Post by kid_dynamite »

Sparhawk wrote:Can you pm me a copy please. Since I'm organising the next SA cruise, I want to be safe lol.
Also, this protects the club from any liability, but what about the individuals ? Are they still fully covered by their insurance ?
Individuals who attend the cruise should be wise enough to know their policy limitations and if not, consult their insurance company.

Sparhawk - check your PM.
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Bennoz
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Post by Bennoz »

kid_dynamite wrote:Individuals who attend the cruise should be wise enough to know their policy limitations and if not, consult their insurance company.
There should be no need to know your policy limitations when cruising because no laws are broken & once the disclaimer is signed - it effectively rules the club out of any legal implications - you look after yourself.

All FTO Aus cruises that are organised must be done under the FTO Aus disclaimers - signed off by all cruising members. The disclaimer basically alleviates any responsibility from FTO Aus in the case of an accident. Meaning if you do have an accident & you wish to pursue an insurance claim, then you do so & treat the incident as a normal driving accident.

If state co-ordinators are not providing the above mentioned paperwork, then they must get a copy from myself. I will sticky it up in the the admin section of the forum tonight as I have just revised it. Sparhawk I will email you a copy with the sign off form.

Also the forum itself cannot be used as legal evidence in cases of organised cruises. Check ->Legal Stuff <- for more information.
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Post by Sparhawk »

Cheers.
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Bennoz
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Post by Bennoz »

Is on the way to your listed email (hotmail) :wink:
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Ther
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Post by Ther »

Ben any chance of posting the disclaimer for the cruises....i had a read at the legal stuff and i understand that the disclaimer can alleviate some liability. I was just thinking about the cruises and how FTO Australia may be liable under negligence tort due to duty of care..
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Post by Bennoz »

Click -> here <- to download the document.

It pretty much covers our arse (namely my arse) for anything a driver may do on a cruise... upto & including if the driver is secretly trafficking machine guns.

The whole "If you screw up, its your issue" type theology had to be adapted in our case, because should any legal action come of the club, there is no money to pay for anything as we are not financial. If we did get taken to court in the clubs current guise, it would be me that gets the summons, it would be me that foots the bill. I love you guys & all, but I gotta better things to do & better things to spend my money on :P

Should we go financial one day, we could certiainly look at CAMS or Club insured events. It would be a benefit to the paying member in that circumstance. Main reason we haven't gone that way yet - because the cars are getting older, the prices are coming down, the drivers age is therefore coming down. Most P platers spend their lifes saving on their first car (FTO) and really dont have the kind of cash to be throwing at a club when they may or may not see any benfit from it (depending on how active they are with club events.)
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Post by khunjeng »

i would support a paying club and eventual CAMS affiliation however its not easy and agree most ppl here wouldn't use the benifits that would bring - they dont even turn up to crusies.

bringing real events and a club structure into play would certainly dictates how the club moves forward or not.

At this stage we are just a forum based club for chats about FTO and issues, my SAU club for example as KD knows, has a stack of organised events - i attend one every fortnight..Monthly general meetings and now plently of sponsership. they moved in a direction to encourage otehr cars into their club...and now we are closely tied with the WRX Club and many EVOs...sometimes more rex's and evos turn up than sbr's. This has given ppl like me even more events to choose from...for example I will go down to Phillip Island to race my car through a WRX event.

I'm not bagging this one, but in comparision to other clubs we are L platers. Which also effects the type of ppl who join to a certain extent. Serious ppl pay their money...otehr just talk sh*t on the forums...ppl who attend the events learn more...when u attend performance car events like track days its amazing how much you begin to relaise you know nothing about driving.

This is effects the topics and conversation within the forums..You will always get tossers and noobs aksing basic questions...once ppl start to get serious the quality of the convo lifts and the more everyone benifits. its a cycle.

my 2cents
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Bennoz
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Post by Bennoz »

khunjeng wrote:i would support a paying club and eventual CAMS affiliation however its not easy and agree most ppl here wouldn't use the benifits that would bring - they dont even turn up to crusies.

bringing real events and a club structure into play would certainly dictates how the club moves forward or not.

At this stage we are just a forum based club for chats about FTO and issues, my SAU club for example as KD knows, has a stack of organised events - i attend one every fortnight..Monthly general meetings and now plently of sponsership. they moved in a direction to encourage otehr cars into their club...and now we are closely tied with the WRX Club and many EVOs...sometimes more rex's and evos turn up than sbr's. This has given ppl like me even more events to choose from...for example I will go down to Phillip Island to race my car through a WRX event.

I'm not bagging this one, but in comparision to other clubs we are L platers. Which also effects the type of ppl who join to a certain extent. Serious ppl pay their money...otehr just talk sh*t on the forums...ppl who attend the events learn more...when u attend performance car events like track days its amazing how much you begin to relaise you know nothing about driving.

This is effects the topics and conversation within the forums..You will always get tossers and noobs aksing basic questions...once ppl start to get serious the quality of the convo lifts and the more everyone benifits. its a cycle.

my 2cents
Yes but I will not base the future direction of this club on that of another. There are thousands of soapboxes and rexes out there... so its a lot easier to group a bunch of like minded folk who want to flog their car round a track & be covered for it. There are less than 500 FTO's on aussie roads as we speak...scattered amongst the states.

The foundations here are already in place to go into a financial directly - including monthly meetings & club constitutions. It was done before either you or I found this website. With current number stats it works out to be about $140 a head per year to make it legit including cams fees, events, web hosting etc etc.... its not gonna happen that way.

Why do you keep coming back to this website when the FTO is your misses? Because we are a happy friendly family type environment. Thats what will keep us moving forward as group.

Dont get me wrong, Im certainly not against legitimizing the club as a registered business, but at this stage the cons out weight the pros. We could register without cams affiliation to start with - which would make sense in a fiduciary manner - but that then involves:

Purchasing a frame company - ie a legal bare shell in which to put our club ($1000 - $1500)
Setting up banking facilities on the new company
Legal documentation drawn up (legal personnel involved)
Establishing fee payment methods (web redevelopment involved)
Running quarterly BAS statements (accounting personnel involved)

This has been discussed at length before & Kaz, myself & the committee could manage it..... but what for? A 6 car cruise? See where Im coming from?

The best thing we can do with the clubs current guise is promote. This is why Im taking the trip down for Autosalon, this why we interact with other clubs (like in NSW we crusie with the EVO club, you guys cruise with SAU etc) this is why we throw fliers under peoples wipers. If you can organise a fast fours photographer on a cruise.. do it etc etc etc :wink: If the exposure reaches a busy level, I'll take the next step.
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Post by khunjeng »

Bennoz wrote:
khunjeng wrote:i would support a paying club and eventual CAMS affiliation however its not easy and agree most ppl here wouldn't use the benifits that would bring - they dont even turn up to crusies.

bringing real events and a club structure into play would certainly dictates how the club moves forward or not.

At this stage we are just a forum based club for chats about FTO and issues, my SAU club for example as KD knows, has a stack of organised events - i attend one every fortnight..Monthly general meetings and now plently of sponsership. they moved in a direction to encourage otehr cars into their club...and now we are closely tied with the WRX Club and many EVOs...sometimes more rex's and evos turn up than sbr's. This has given ppl like me even more events to choose from...for example I will go down to Phillip Island to race my car through a WRX event.

I'm not bagging this one, but in comparision to other clubs we are L platers. Which also effects the type of ppl who join to a certain extent. Serious ppl pay their money...otehr just talk sh*t on the forums...ppl who attend the events learn more...when u attend performance car events like track days its amazing how much you begin to relaise you know nothing about driving.

This is effects the topics and conversation within the forums..You will always get tossers and noobs aksing basic questions...once ppl start to get serious the quality of the convo lifts and the more everyone benifits. its a cycle.

my 2cents
Yes but I will not base the future direction of this club on that of another. There are thousands of soapboxes and rexes out there... so its a lot easier to group a bunch of like minded folk who want to flog their car round a track & be covered for it. There are less than 500 FTO's on aussie roads as we speak...scattered amongst the states.

The foundations here are already in place to go into a financial directly - including monthly meetings & club constitutions. It was done before either you or I found this website. With current number stats it works out to be about $140 a head per year to make it legit including cams fees, events, web hosting etc etc.... its not gonna happen that way.

Why do you keep coming back to this website when the FTO is your misses? Because we are a happy friendly family type environment. Thats what will keep us moving forward as group.

Dont get me wrong, Im certainly not against legitimizing the club as a registered business, but at this stage the cons out weight the pros. We could register without cams affiliation to start with - which would make sense in a fiduciary manner - but that then involves:

Purchasing a frame company - ie a legal bare shell in which to put our club ($1000 - $1500)
Setting up banking facilities on the new company
Legal documentation drawn up (legal personnel involved)
Establishing fee payment methods (web redevelopment involved)
Running quarterly BAS statements (accounting personnel involved)

This has been discussed at length before & Kaz, myself & the committee could manage it..... but what for? A 6 car cruise? See where Im coming from?
umm I think we just said the same thing. I drive the FTO every day its my daily driver now so i havnt forgotten about it

I come back cos I like it, fairly obvious. the Vic guys are all good guys and I would also like to see the club grow - I assume we agree on that.

It wasn't my intent to compare it to SAU. The point was, like in anything, its only as good as we make it.

CAMS and stuff is not what this club is about. Down here we are trying to define what it is about. this convo has got me thinking...i think the guys down in Vic want to start to plan and think about what things we can do to grow it locally...but i assume the theory will apply nationally.

I'm not having a go...Autosalon is a good example of what we plan to do.
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Post by Bennoz »

No probs :wink: I think I added more whilst you were posting
Bennoz wrote:The best thing we can do with the clubs current guise is promote. This is why Im taking the trip down for Autosalon, this why we interact with other clubs (like in NSW we crusie with the EVO club, you guys cruise with SAU etc) this is why we throw fliers under peoples wipers. If you can organise a fast fours photographer on a cruise.. do it etc etc etc Wink If the exposure reaches a busy level, I'll take the next step.
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Post by khunjeng »

Bennoz wrote:No probs :wink: I think I added more whilst you were posting
Bennoz wrote:The best thing we can do with the clubs current guise is promote. This is why Im taking the trip down for Autosalon, this why we interact with other clubs (like in NSW we crusie with the EVO club, you guys cruise with SAU etc) this is why we throw fliers under peoples wipers. If you can organise a fast fours photographer on a cruise.. do it etc etc etc Wink If the exposure reaches a busy level, I'll take the next step.
yeah we are on the same page mate. We even plan to come to NSW for the next Autosalon...cos we assume we could get a sh*t load of ppl.
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Post by Sparhawk »

Bennoz wrote:Is on the way to your listed email (hotmail) :wink:
Got it thanx.

Geesh, this topic turned into a reading epic... LOL

My 2c for what its worth...

I dont personally think we need to go down the CAMMS road (pardon the pun) as, like you said, we are only a small club. I tend to agree with Ben. The cost tends to outweigh the benefits for us. The friendly forum environment with the small get-togethers for the occassional cruise etc seems to suit us fine. I will keep promoting the club, and try to keep our membership clicking over, but there is no real need to become financial. I'm not planning to take my car on the track, as I'm no racing freak, but more like a car enthusiast. The way the club is running at the moment is probably ideal.

Hope this makes sense, i've been drinkin LOL
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Post by khunjeng »

Sparhawk wrote:
Bennoz wrote:Is on the way to your listed email (hotmail) :wink:
Got it thanx.

Geesh, this topic turned into a reading epic... LOL

My 2c for what its worth...

I dont personally think we need to go down the CAMMS road (pardon the pun) as, like you said, we are only a small club. I tend to agree with Ben. The cost tends to outweigh the benefits for us. The friendly forum environment with the small get-togethers for the occassional cruise etc seems to suit us fine. I will keep promoting the club, and try to keep our membership clicking over, but there is no real need to become financial. I'm not planning to take my car on the track, as I'm no racing freak, but more like a car enthusiast. The way the club is running at the moment is probably ideal.

Hope this makes sense, i've been drinkin LOL
Its all good to have ppl register to a forum...the trick is to bulid "members" who contribute.
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Post by Sparhawk »

khunjeng wrote:Its all good to have ppl register to a forum...the trick is to bulid "members" who contribute.
Agreed. That is the hard part. Hence, active and enthusiastic recruiting by the "members" to bring more into the fold is our main method of growth. Just getting noobs to join a cruise is hard, but I've found that once they get the bug they are hooked, and start to contribute once they see the friendly atmosphere we generate :D
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Post by Bennoz »

Sparhawk wrote:
khunjeng wrote:Its all good to have ppl register to a forum...the trick is to bulid "members" who contribute.
Agreed. That is the hard part. Hence, active and enthusiastic recruiting by the "members" to bring more into the fold is our main method of growth. Just getting noobs to join a cruise is hard, but I've found that once they get the bug they are hooked, and start to contribute once they see the friendly atmosphere we generate :D
One of the top items on my 'to do' list is get the new gallery started... plenty of big cruise pics etc, the n00bs will love it & hopefully be up for the next cruise type thing :)
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