Brake upgrade #2

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:31 pm

RedlineGX's brake upgrade has got me thinking and doing research.

I have already been "planning" on using the Evo IV rotors as mine need changing, and for $350 per pair it is the same price for 276mm and 294mm rotors (DBA4000)
And, I also know that the caliper from a Evo IV is the same as Evo III which is also the same as FTO.

Now these are my thoughts now for the easiest AND cheapest brake upgrade:

-Ralliart Magna has 294mm rotors, which obviously would be Evo IV items
-Normal magna has 276mm rotors just like FTO
-FTO uses same brake caliper as Evo IV and SOME magna's, most are single pot though where as the FTO is twin pot
-People upgrade their normal Magna brakes to Ralliart by using 294mm rotor and Ralliart caliper OR Pajero calipers
-IF Magna single piston caliper and FTO twin piston caliper is interchangable, and Magna single piston caliper is interchangable with Ralliart twin piston caliper to be used on 294mm rotor, then that should technically mean that with 294mm rotors, we could go buy the following calipers and have a bolt on larger brake system on FTO: Ralliart Magna (for the extreme people I guess the Brembo upgrade might fit too?) AWD Verada/Magna and Pajero

Magna people are also upgrading rear rotors to 284mm AWD/Ralliart magna rotors but not sure how interchangable these parts will be with FTO as they are vented disc rather than solid as we have

What are peoples ideas on this?
I think if we are lucky, we could possibly upgrade front & rear rotors, with bigger calipers, and rear from solid to vented + slotted rotors all round with kangaroo paw ventilation + 1" master cylinder for a bit over $1000 if you DIY

Or, on a cheap side, maybe 294mm ralliart rotor + calipers bolt in... from a wrecker how much could this be? Cheap?

mxysxy · Post by **mxysxy** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:36 pm

sounds good,
but one thing I know from Project Management is too much dependancy as above will never result to success
need to see the implementation

jonowong · Post by **jonowong** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:45 pm

care to be test dummy? lols

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:15 pm

Yeah I might give it a go but not straight away
My car is still 4 stud and will only be doing this after I get it to 5 stud for the rotors

wildfaye · Post by **wildfaye** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:19 am

Studs

to chg a 4stud to 5stud, u jus need to get a wheel hub that hides behind e rotor, re-drilling of e rotor is not necessary/recommended.

should be able to get from a scrapyard. not too sure if its a direct fit from the magna thou.

Evo Fronts

evo4 non brembo is a 2pot 294mm, similar to the galant/legnum v4 and sposedly the magna in oz. being a 2 pot which is e same as the fto's 276mm 2pot, the onli benefit would be a bigger surface area to dispel heat. it should be a direct bolt on. and it fits 16" assuming u done want to go anyting bigger.

Brembos

not worth the upgrade imho, read my setup below.
unless your front lower arm/knuckles are already E5 onwards, the cost to retrofit the brembos is gona cost u.

Rears

the rear of the lancer/fto being a fwd, does not generate enuff force to require an upgrade, hence vented rotors r not require. u can save your dough on this one.

Rotors/pads

rotors, imho, jus go dba std slotteds, unless u r really into hardcore tracking. the cost doesn't really justify it. jus match a good pad to it and u r game for it.

My setup

my now-defunct ex-fto uses the following setup for track.
stock GPX calipers.
276mm dba std slotteds front/260mm dba std slotteds rear (A$400)
500 deg project my pads all round (A$300)
stainless steel hoses all round (A$200)
5.1 brake fluid

trust me, it works, no fade on track, and all for >1k aud. (opps tis should read <1k aud)
as good as brembos at a fraction of the price.

my S$0.01

cheers
sam

SG · Post by SG » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:15 pm

what was the cost of the dba evo4 rotors front and back?

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:43 pm

The DBA rotors for evo IV and FTO are the same price

So this is where I think if someone is upgrading/changing to DBA rotors, might as well put some money into the caliper setup to utilise a larger rotor

I will look into this
In fact, I might go to a local wrecker, hopefully they have pajero/ralliart magna calipers and I can buy them and ask them if I can return them if it doesn't fit
Then fit it onto my caliper bracker with stock rotors and obviously that way I'll be able to figure out if the calipers:
a. Fit
b. give the extra few mm clearance needed for larger pads

Where did you get project mu pads from?
And the braided lines??

wildfaye · Post by **wildfaye** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:11 am

spetz wrote:The DBA rotors for evo IV and FTO are the same price

So this is where I think if someone is upgrading/changing to DBA rotors, might as well put some money into the caliper setup to utilise a larger rotor

I will look into this
In fact, I might go to a local wrecker, hopefully they have pajero/ralliart magna calipers and I can buy them and ask them if I can return them if it doesn't fit
Then fit it onto my caliper bracker with stock rotors and obviously that way I'll be able to figure out if the calipers:
a. Fit
b. give the extra few mm clearance needed for larger pads

Where did you get project mu pads from?
And the braided lines??

As mentioned, larger rotors are onli to disperse heat. Cheep alternative is to run some air duct from the front of the car to the wheel well. Viola, cool rotors.

If the 276 n 294 are same cost than the cost factor would be to 2 source the evo4/magna/galant/legnum non brembo 2 pot calipers. Not too sure if they are bolt on. If they are good on ya. If u need to fabricate a bracket or a safer alternative-evo5 lower arms/knuckles, then it'll cost ya, not worth it.

A mate of mine used a Evo5 brembo on his ex-fto, he had to go the Evo5 lower arm n knuckle way. It costed him big bucks cost he wanted the brembo bling factor.

When tested on track, he was amazed at what costs onli 30% of his brembo setup could do as well as his brembos. Go figure.

The ss hoses are custom items. The PMu pads from a local workshop. I'm in Singapore.

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:47 am

My theory here though is that you don't really count the cost of the rotor (as you'd be upgrading anyway or changing due to worn/damaged rotor) so the swap may be as easy as just a bracket or caliper change

And yes, bigger rotor runs cooler so less brake fade
Which is exactly what I am looking for. The brakes brake strong enough, but at 200km/h by the time I slow down to half that speed I can feel they aren't as strong anymore. I realise this is mostly due to that I don't even know what pads are in, my rotors are warped and worn and a few other issues but regardless the better the brakes the happier I am

RedlineGX · Post by **RedlineGX** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:21 am

wildfaye wrote: evo4 non brembo is a 2pot 294mm, similar to the galant/legnum v4 and sposedly the magna in oz. being a 2 pot which is e same as the fto's 276mm 2pot, the onli benefit would be a bigger surface area to dispel heat. it should be a direct bolt on. and it fits 16" assuming u done want to go anyting bigger.

For a GPX as he said you would only be disipating heat better which is really the whole point of a bigger disc. For the normal casual driver this isnt usually a big issue and will not generally effect your stopping distance at normal speeds significantly you would only notice the benefit under serious braking or very spirited driving like on a track etc. where brake fade is common. Without changing the caliper the immediate difference will not be noticeable.

Your best bet if you dont already have is to upgrade to SS hose and better pads and fluid. That will be a noticeable difference in pedal feel and stopping that will be a lot cheaper.

For those with GR and GX single pot then yes upgrading to larger discs/GPX calipers will be better but for the price of even used GPX calipers you could as well do what I did and go for some new wilwood 4pots or similar.

Nacho · Post by **Nacho** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:49 am

Or you can possibly concentrate on stripping more weight from the vehicle so you won't need the brake upgrade. Some people upgrade to larger brakes on lighter cars and put all that unnecessary weight on the vehicle thinking that they need big ass brakes.

wildfaye · Post by **wildfaye** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:49 pm

spetz wrote:My theory here though is that you don't really count the cost of the rotor (as you'd be upgrading anyway or changing due to worn/damaged rotor) so the swap may be as easy as just a bracket or caliper change

And yes, bigger rotor runs cooler so less brake fade
Which is exactly what I am looking for. The brakes brake strong enough, but at 200km/h by the time I slow down to half that speed I can feel they aren't as strong anymore. I realise this is mostly due to that I don't even know what pads are in, my rotors are warped and worn and a few other issues but regardless the better the brakes the happier I am

I concur on the cost basis of the rotors and the calipers.

The point is if u can a source a low cost bolt on bigger caliper w/o major mods, than its worth the hassle.

How often do u do 200kmh?

Per RedlineGX, try some SS hoses + higher boiling pt brake fluid + higher temp pads first.

wildfaye · Post by **wildfaye** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:51 pm

RedlineGX wrote:
wildfaye wrote: evo4 non brembo is a 2pot 294mm, similar to the galant/legnum v4 and sposedly the magna in oz. being a 2 pot which is e same as the fto's 276mm 2pot, the onli benefit would be a bigger surface area to dispel heat. it should be a direct bolt on. and it fits 16" assuming u done want to go anyting bigger.

For a GPX as he said you would only be disipating heat better which is really the whole point of a bigger disc. For the normal casual driver this isnt usually a big issue and will not generally effect your stopping distance at normal speeds significantly you would only notice the benefit under serious braking or very spirited driving like on a track etc. where brake fade is common. Without changing the caliper the immediate difference will not be noticeable.

Your best bet if you dont already have is to upgrade to SS hose and better pads and fluid. That will be a noticeable difference in pedal feel and stopping that will be a lot cheaper.

For those with GR and GX single pot then yes upgrading to larger discs/GPX calipers will be better but for the price of even used GPX calipers you could as well do what I did and go for some new wilwood 4pots or similar.

Which model wilwoods r u on/specs?
Are they bolt on?
Whats the cost?
Are the pads(many diff temp types?) easily avail for replacement?

SG · Post by SG » Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:02 pm

Yep i agree with RedlineGX aswell...I've tested nearly that setup (with midly slotted front rotors aswell -same size) and you can go from 140kph to a near stop, pret-ty fast... wheels semi-skidding(?) aswell. And i could do that numerous laps in a row and only getting the usual soft pedal, feel.

I'd rather upgrade something on the engine than brakes again next up cos they do so well.. well.... well enough anyway...

Post by **Bennoz** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:16 pm

Hmmm... Im running slotted rotors with EBC pads, braided lines, Dot 5.1 fluid on GPX calipers (which I reco-ed) and to be honest its really not cutting the mustard. Once they get a bit of heat in them, it takes a he-man effort to get the pedal down.

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:06 pm

I don't do 200km/h often at all, but all it takes is that one time...

Also, at worst for the caliper, there would be the fabrication of a bracker for it and using the original twin pot
And redline GX said he paid $40 for both of them or something?

RedlineGX · Post by **RedlineGX** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:02 pm

Yes I paid about $40 for the brackets was quite surprised it was so cheap. Did up the template took to a machine shop. They classified it as a 'gasket'...pretty thick gasket.

Wildfaye...no not a bolt on kit unfortunately. My previous post is here with most info you will need.

http://www.ftoaustralia.com/modules.php ... pic&t=9449

wildfaye · Post by **wildfaye** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:07 pm

RedlineGX wrote:Yes I paid about $40 for the brackets was quite surprised it was so cheap. Did up the template took to a machine shop. They classified it as a 'gasket'...pretty thick gasket.

Wildfaye...no not a bolt on kit unfortunately. My previous post is here with most info you will need.

http://www.ftoaustralia.com/modules.php ... pic&t=9449

Wow, good price on brackets! what kinda metal? Do u have a pic of it alone?

khunjeng · Post by **khunjeng** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:46 am

you will get better response from some braided lines...personally I have had no issues with the stock GPX setup and decent pads..The only reason I would upgrade for a daily driver is to make it look cool...and they do look cool.

Post by **Bennoz** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:23 am

I bit the bullet & ordered the UAS kit...

Will post some wheel stands pics when I get 'em!

And maybe a DIY if anyone wants it.