FTO AUSTRALIA

HI all,
Wanted to talk to u about a subject that has been on my nerves for some time now. 5 months ago, i got caught on the freeway from a police officer - he was 650m away, and stated that he "sat back and watched me for the last 30-40km" I was speeding, and i accept the fine. In this instance, i sat on 105km 99% of the journey, then for the other 1% i overtook a semi, and it sped up when i was outside it.. so i went up to 123km, got booked. Whilst i know i broke the law, it seems that a VY commodore doing the same thing would not have been so vigorously watched. Being on my p's, i lost my licence. On my provisional licence - i made the mistake of driving down morayfield rd ( reknown for drag racing on thurs night ) on my way home from work. As i did a u-turn iwas pulled over by another police officer. This time, unessesary noise. whilst 3 vr commodores went around me drag racing, i got pulled over. I know my car didnt make any noise as i turned, and the police officer confirmed this. I asked him how he heard my car over the noise of all the other cars. He stated he didnt hear anything, but saw my REAR tyres spinning and smoking up. My car is a FF 95 gpx. You can see my frustration. He also told me that he was sick of dickheads like me coming out every night and endangering peoples lives. ( which i dont do - seems that only vr' drivers do that ) $240 and 3 points later, i am left with little way to get to work, paying $3g insurance on a car i cant drive, and a feeling that young performance car drivers are being discriminated against.


To summarise.. my problem isnt being caught.. i was speeding, thats fine. BUT.. The delibrate targeting of a "hot red car with green neon pulsating on the inside" is unacceptable. They forget that we to are citizens, and just like other stereotypes (race, gender etc), u cant group all the trouble makers together with honest ppl trying to do the right thing.

Last thing ( i promise, then i will go), is this injustice. 123km on the freeway - instant loss of licence? 4 points for p-platers is rediculous.. we all make mistakes, again, based on age, we have to tread on a very fine line. The last accident i was in was a 92yr old who fell asleep at the wheel.. hes got an unrestricted licence, with 12 points. Driving 23 over on the freeway i consider to be a fairly common offence, it doesnt deserve immediate loss of licence. Thank you if u did read to the end of this, and i welcome any feedback.

whilst i sympathise with you... you are driving a car that attracts attention so you need to take a bit more "Care"

the other ticket... i'd take that to court and quote him then explain the make up of your car....

things working against you are

P Plates
Private Import
Driving in an area where people misbehave

i know it sucks but you just have to be careful...

I'm no legal expert but if the police officer's explanation for pulling you over was based on his statement of "he didnt hear anything, but saw my REAR tyres spinning and smoking up", then I am fairly sure you would win this case very quickly in court. Primarily because it is impossible for your car to do this. By his own admission he did not hear you so he is either lying and he did not see you or he saw another car, not yours. Either way, the ticket would be thrown out of court.

Yeah I had the same prob on my p plates, i used to get followed for ages by police, i lost my license because I got pulled over twice for not displaying p plates "correctly" problem is both times i took htem off, because my car was keyed, because of the p plates on the car !

i do have to ask why you ddint take that fine to court, bar jsut the noise factor, any one knows you cant bag up the rears on a ff so you would of wont the case easy and made that officer think twicee before being a dickhead again...

anyway on the subject

i used to own a new magna sport before my fto as a company car and i got pulled over and inspected for drugs because it was suspesius i owned such a car at my age.

what bs is that huh?

a cop once told me that i needed to get my car complianced and roadworthied, and when he asked me how many kw my car has, i told him 90, and he gave me the "dont bullshit me" face lol... well if my car isnt complianced/roadworthy, why didnt he book me for driving a unregistered vehicle or somethign!?!??! STUPID COPS!!! make up all the sh*t u want!!

As far as the legal issue goes, i was quite angry with him saying my rear tyres were spinning, as then i knew i was wrongly pulled over, i argued that point with the officer. He told me he was sick of young hoons, and he was pleased to see that i wouldnt be out on the roads causing any more harm to motorists. I told him that i would take it to court on the grounds of the statement he made. His response "You'll be wasting your time, we saw that you were breaking the law". Pretty much what i took from that, is that even if i go to court and quote his reason for pulling me over, he would say that he saw and heard my tyres. I've paid the fine, and am not writing making excuses. Instead, i really wanted some insight into other peoples experiences, whether they too feel like they are hard done by. Or the oppisite, that maybe i am bringing up a remote issue.

I personally think that a highly publicised car crash of a GTR, or a WRX, isnt helping our cause. I could almost gaurantee you that the majority of under 21 car crashes are people in other types of cars, with a lot of other factors involved ( drink driving, drugs, fatique etc ).

Then You have politicians who have no idea about the car scene pretty much implying that if u have $3000 rims, or your engine is 500hp, that your a criminal. That for some reason having this type of car means that you are only using it to brake the law. Don't we get punished enough from the insurance companies without having to worry about constant attention from the police, and what i deem to be harrassment. And lets no mention the new anti-hooning laws. (im from queensland and dont beleive these laws have come in yet, please correct me if they are inplace in any other states). But making p-platers unable to drive certain HP cars is rediculous. Single white men aged between 25-25 are the most likely to commit murder, so lets not give any 25-35yr old single men a gun? The difference you ask? How many 17-21 yr old's are in government making descisions about these issues? none.

I may be stirring up a hornets nest here but I tend to agree with the "anti-hoon" laws. At least the part that limits what an unexperienced driver can drive. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything personal about your driving but the fact remains that the most road deaths occur in that young driver age bracket. And having done several defensive driver courses with younger drivers, it's become very obvious to me how great the gap is in road skills when it comes to experience behind the wheel. There's also the studies that have shown time and time again that p-platers that do a defensive driving course actually have more accidents because they tend to get cocky behind the wheel. Nothing can make up for experience behind the wheel and whilst each case is different, government can only legislate for the general rule. Why should cars be any different to motor bikes? They've been restricted for years. It's only in recent times you've been able to do a Q-Ride course and get on a bike over 250ccs right from your p's. Even this I don't agree with but at least it's better than how easy it is to get a car licence.

There is talk of introducing something similar over here, simply because of the easy availablity of high performance cars cheaply over here. It is completely common to see under-20 year olds here driving Evos, WRXs, Skylines, and other such types. But there's been no action as of yet.

Interestingly enough, we have had for a yeah now a set of anti 'boy-racer' laws which were meant to curb the ongoing street racing problem we have here. And while the objectives of the laws is fine and I agree with them 100%, the implementation of them is just stupid in some cases. For example, if a police officer judges that you have displayed 'unnecessary acceleration' in leaving an intersection or similar, he can impound your car for 28 days. And they make you pay for the storage! And it's entirely your word against theirs, and based on what their definition of 'unnecessary' is. There's another one about loss of traction - if you have any wheels spinning for whatever reason (rain, powerful 2WD, etc) and a cop thinks it was 'unnecessary', its the same deal - bye bye car for 28 days.

But the worst one of the lot is the exhaust law we have here now. The wording of the law says that you can be failed a Warrant of Fitness or have your car defected by a cop if it is 'noticeably and significantly louder than standard'. WTF does that mean? Are they expecting every cop and WOF tester to know by ear how loud every model of car on the road is supposed to be stock? You are basically at the mercy of the individual's definition of 'noticeably and significantly'. The system you guys have in Australia is far far superior with the measurable limits. Our laws are so subjective it is just embarrassing...

We have a similar issue here in that there have been numerous examples of youngish drivers being picked on seemingly purely based on the cars they drive. In fact out of the few that have taken their cases to court, many have won because the judge has thrown the case out because the laws are so open to interpretation that they are un-enforcable. But still they remain.

Having said all that, I've owned performance cars for over 10 years and only been pulled over twice. On the first occasion I totally deserved it (135kph in a 100kph zone), and the second time the cop just wanted to tell me I had a blown headlight. It seems that if you keep your nose clean you will generally be allright, but I guess there will always be exceptions.

As for the rear wheels spinning thing, that's just laughable...

Look, I gotta go along with HirAedd, I think restricting the power of cars for P platers is probably the most sensible thing to do, it certainly makes more sense than curfews - how in the hell is a young driver going to get experience driving at night if there is a curfew? Are they all of a sudden going to be competent when they go off their P's I'm not having a go at P platers here, I was one once...., but in the majority of cases if I am overtaken on the road in a dangerous manner its usually by a P plater with his seat so far reclined that he can hardly see over the dash and driving some high powered car. I also have a problem with the way they have changed the law regarding Motor Cycles. Used to be that you had to stay on your P's for a year and couldn't ride anything greater than 250cc. Now it's classed on power to weight ratio... Anyone ever ridden an Aprilia? Those things fly but they are classed as appropriate for learners- go figure!!

I dont think this issue will go away any time soon and I dont know the solution that will please everyone, but keep the discussion going, its a very relevant topic.

Cheers

I think it all depends on the cop or region. Cos I was pulled over doing 85+ in a 60 zone, and the cop let me go for the fact that my mum was in the car and i had a clean record. It also depends on how you talk to them!

I also have to say that i agree with the P plater laws, There are many young drivers that i see that i can tell, have no idea what damage their driving can cause. My brother is on his L's and i'm trying to do everything to make him understand about responsible driving, with knowing the car. Which means trying to give him the understanding of controlling the car when it's out of control. hehehe... sure there are many responsible P platers...

maybe they should bring in a complaints system, where a driver has allowance for two complaints. a complaint can be made with atleast 2 witneses, and if the driver gets all complaints he is restricted to driving a 2 cylinder

Or an insurance type of system, where they look at factors such as performace in school, your parents driving history! What cat your parents have... etc and give you a rating which you can build up over time.

I think the recent movies such as F&F and anime such as Initial D have a lot to do, with how young drivers see everything.

But anyway enough rambling, sounds like you got a bit unlucky Djay...
But i still would of taken that second ticket to court.

ok, my turn...

here is an opinion given to me from an insider, who has links to the TMU.... the reason why cops are pulling ppl over (esp with imports) is because they have seen far too many punks (with imports) doing stupid things on the road and it is just impossible for them to distinguish between the good ones and the bad ones... that makes their job hard and it has its flow-on effects on us... guess what i'm saying is that it's not our fault, nor the cop's fault - it's the testosterone-charged egotistic punks out there who are causing an ugly scene for the rest of us...

I strongly agree with Boris though - 95% of the time it's an attitude test when you get pulled over. if you fail the attitude test, then it gives them a good reason to bend you over... to be honest I have been pulled over in my car (with and without P's) before but I have never been given a fine / canary etc - just a stern warning from the cop and that's about it... Other times they've been tailing me for miles, yet they did nothing more... (i presume a quick licence & rego check with D24 came up with a clean record which might've helped lol) ...so really I think it's all a matter of courtesy - if you know you did something wrong, admit it and say you just had a really bad day or something (make up a story like you just found out your fiancee cheated on you with your brother / sister or something). In my 9 years experience of driving, I notice that cops tend to be more lenient if you don't act above them - and those who attended the Hot4s club photoshoot in Melb last year will also agree that the Sgt from Knox TMU who gatecrashed into our party seemed pretty friendly because we were all being 'nice', correct? Bearing in mind that we clearly had a number of highly modified cars surrounding the cop, he hardly gave us any trouble for that either...

on the other hand however:

if u have $3000 rims, or your engine is 500hp, that your a criminal. That for some reason having this type of car means that you are only using it to brake the law

I don't care how ignorant people are these days but nobody, and i mean NOBODY 'builds' 500hp cars for the street whilst the rest of the community can expect them not to break the law... that's like saying "I'm chopping the roof off from my car and I won't get wet in the rain"... RUBBISH. When you build a 500hp car, chances are you have already broken the law with illegal modifications to get to that level (unless you are one of the very select few who can be bothered or afford to have the car rigorously engineered & EPA-approved). I'm not saying owning a 500hp street car makes you a criminal - I'm saying a 500hp street car is just a good excuse to fulfil that 'temptation', but I'm sure you all are old and mature enough to weigh the risks and understand the law - if you break 'em, expect to face up to the consequences yourself and stop whining away like it's not your fault...

At the end of the day DJAY, I'd say it's just bad luck dude... Sydney is extremely notorious for street racing (if you read the Fast Fours forums you'd hear a lot of brags about it) so if you can put yourself in the cop's shoes, you'd prob understand why they treat youngsters on hi-po cars as such these days... high-testosterone and hi-po cars don't mix - it's a fact that the cops have to deal with day in and out... it's also the very reason why they are imposing power limits on P-platers... As for the smoking rear wheels, I'd definitely contest that charge in court (with a very high probability of winning the case based on technical grounds) so you'll have our support on that one...

Just one thing,
i dont want to be percieved as whining about getting a fine, and beleiving i am above the law. I can't argue my speeding fine, i made a mistake, fair cop. I drive a car that draws attention, this sh*t is going to happen. It was just the smugness, and superiorirty of the cop that made me fire up. Even though u would think by the tone of my posts that i would fire up with a cop, i was quite the oppisite. It didnt help that i had hardcore techno music and pulsing neon lights. i spose, drive 100% safe all the time, and enjoy your nice car, or get a Commodore

Having a right attitude when a cop pulls u over is always a good thing BUT when the cop is just out to do ya, his gonna do u no matter what.

A few weeks ago I got pulled over by a undercover cop in St Kilda and as soon as the cop approached my window, he went totally berserk! This guy was having a fit !! I was speechless and could not think of one thing to say! He just kept on ranting on and on and finally he told me i was 20km/h over the limit. I asked to see the camera and he said he had 'followed me' over 400m and concluded that I was 20km/h over!
There was no point to reason with the guy as he was in the biggest fit of his life. Which is quite funny because my car from the exterior is stock (besides exhaust) and 20km/h doesnt require an officer to chuck a tantrum like that and threaten to take my licence away from me.

I accepted the fine because i knew i was over and didnt complain about it but what got to me was HIS ATTITUDE and that he thought i was another Skyline Muzza driver, because when i looked at the ticket , it said 'Make of Vehicle : NISSAN'! And he even checked my registration the dumb prick!

if the fine says "Nissan" on it then you have nothing to worry about Milsy - it's not a valid ticket... Afterall it's meant to be a legal document - how can such charges apply when the police officer can't even get his facts right?

Escalate to the Ombudsman if you have to.

I havent paid it yet. So what is the best thing to do? write a letter stating the officer wrongly fined me? help me out here cause it was like $205 plus 3 points!

Say the officer must have confused you for another car when he pulled you over, as you clearly (and can easily and conclusively prove) do not own a Nissan.

Usually with stuffups like those, they have no choice but to abandon them ... well at least they do here.

The law is generally quite black and white. If the ticket is wrong in any detail, it can be contested. In my personal experience, simply writing a letter to the police commisioner is enough to get these over-turned (yes, I have done this successfully). Be very polite, point out the facts and ask that the ticket be struck from your record. Failing that, get a solicitor to look at the case.

I hope you got the officer's badge number or name at least... You can write a letter of complaint to the police ombudsman to contest the charge, not only because the police officer failed to provide you with evidence to warrant the charge (not that he is legally obliged to i think anyway) but also the fact that the fine ticket was incorrectly filled in... You may also want to add the fact that the police officer was being very abusive towards you (despite the apparent absence of threat to the officer's safety at the time - unless you had a stun-gun in your hand or something ) so if you have an independant witness, you have a pretty good case to have the charges dropped...

One thing that bohters me at least in my area, is that 99% of import drivers aren't hoons. There are some nice cars around, Skylines, WRX's and yet it's always the f*^#ing MORONS in commodres that do the stupid things. Weather it be a P plater in an SS or some beat up old calais, you can always rely on them to do something stupid. I've been pulled up in a mate's 90 model celica because he "took a corner to fast" while a brand new commo sped past goin at least 80 in a 60 zone!! "end rant"

Personally i have only been pulled over once and that was just a regulation license check and breath test and i think everyone here can testify that my car is pure cop bait. I have been followed soooo many times i've lost count but never get pulled over, and i'm a P plater. Like everyone has said, pass the attitude test and 99 times out of 100 you'll be ok.