speakers

[rxboy]

I must admit I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to car speakers .

I'm not exactly sure what's the difference between 4-way speakers and 3-way speakers other than the increase in max power commonly seen.

What would you guys recommend in terms of best value for money in terms of sound quality? What I mean is: I DON'T want to pay an extra $200 for some super-duper cone which might produce frequencies that only a dog could hear anyways. I want a good quality all-round speaker setup (including a sub ofcourse) with equal emphasis on rear 6"X9" and front 6" with tweeter splits. I already have a JVC head-unit with enough pre-outs, so that's no problem.

Thanx in advance.

[GPXXX]

where's Boney when you need him nowadays....???

[Hez]

best value for quailty would have to be clarion, (4-way consist of mid-range, woofer and 2 tweeters), whereas 3 way only has 1 tweeter. dere is no point in gettin a really powerful speaker if u run it off your head unit, u need an amp to run those 4 way's i believe.

Get some splits at the front. huge range of 6X9's (jus test them to your likeing) and as for sub it depends if u want SPL or SQ?

correct me if im wrong as im a newbie in audio too.

Also which is the best postion to place sub in the FTO?

[rxboy]

Thanx for explaining the 4-way thing Hez. I'm gonna run the sub off a 2-channel 400W amp. I'm assuming that I can use 1 channel for sub and 1 for a set of rear 6x9 speakers. Is that correct? Would I be better off getting a 2-channel 600W amp instead if I were to buy 4-way 6x9s???

I was told that the best position for sub is in the boot, firing into the rear seats. I'll find out more from the pros at JB Hi-Fi

PS: excuse my noobity , but what do SPL & SQ mean?

[Hez]

ok firstly 2 channel 400w amp would not be enuf to run a sub, also depends on sub output. if your talkin about 400WRMS den dats a different story.
also if u buy amps which have 600w ratings den there normally cheap and nasty, coz all of the quailty amps are measured in wrms.
eg boss 1200watts- cheap and nasty!

about your 1 channel sub thing, it really depends on your amp. i personally will go 4 a jaycar amp to run the sub itself and another amp to run your other for speakers.

hope it helps

[Jono]

its funny talking bout wattage, cos i play the guitar, n 50 watts valve amp will blow any car system away.

[Boney]

where's Boney when you need him nowadays....???

im here.. im here!! what did i miss??

PS: excuse my noobity , but what do SPL & SQ mean?

ok.. first question.. and an easy answer..

SPL = Sound pressure level...... DB (Loudness)
SQ - Sound Quality (Self Explaintory)

I'm not exactly sure what's the difference between 4-way speakers and 3-way speakers other than the increase in max power commonly seen.

Hez is right on this one.. the 4-ways have a double tweeter as apposed to the single on the 3 ways... and this does not nessesarily mean you will get a greater power output.. but the fact that you have 4 speakers running rather than 3 is the common occourence for the extra (Box rated power)... truth is.. you are only splitting the high range up more.. you wont hear an audible difference in loudness between most 3 and 4ways

The better question is.. why are you even bothering with 6x9's?

take a look at most good systems.. ie (go down and check out MAS this weekend and take a look at the sound off comps... you will notice almost none of the compeditors use rear speakers.. just a sub and a front stage (Front stage meaning splits or 2-ways in the front doors/front section of the car) although a few might have speakers there for cosmetic perposes only

the logic behind this is... when you go and see a band.. or live music.. where is the performer? behind you or in front of you?

a well set up car system can create what is called a frontal stage.. were your dashboard is like the stage.. the vocals will seem to come right out of the cdplayer itself.. the drums will be out the back.. kinda like theres a drummer sitting on your hood... this is what SQ (Sound quality) comps are all about.. and trust me.. when you hear a SQ car.. you think very differently about car sound.

having said that.. you might wonder why so many people have 6X9's in their car... there are a few reasons for that...

1) 6X9's have "good" bass - yes compaired to a 6 inch speaker in the front doors.. of course they will.. as they have a larger cone (Surface area) so therefore they can play lower frequencies more easily..

so you see a lot of people use them rather than a sub due to lack of money..

2) more speakers the better - The more speakers you have.. the louder the "whole" sound will be...

3) i want someting for the people in the back to hear..


So really after all is said and done.. its up to you.. the reason a lot of people (like myself) are against 6X9's is the fact that it will draw the sound behind you.. and the music just doesn't sound real.. plus the fact coaxial speakers (2way/3way/4way) will never sound anywere close to splits

if your only reson for wanting 6X9's in the back is for rear passenger enjoyment i would suggested amping up the front stage and the sub.. and leaving the 6X9's running off the head unit (this way.. you wont hear them much from the front... but the rear passengers will get just enuff so they are not overcome by the bass fron the boot

I'm gonna run the sub off a 2-channel 400W amp. I'm assuming that I can use 1 channel for sub and 1 for a set of rear 6x9 speakers. Is that correct? Would I be better off getting a 2-channel 600W amp instead if I were to buy 4-way 6x9s???

ok.. what you need to find out.. is what the real wattage power of those amps your looking at is.. you know how you go down to the store and you see the boxes saying things like 1200watts!! and they are only $120??

thats because they are talking about "MAX POWER"

max power is the the loudest the speaker can possibly go.. (in saying which if you put that much power throught it.. it might play it for a second.. but then it will blow up..

the common rating to work with when looking at car audio is WRMS ratings..

WRMS is the amount of watts that the equiptment (speakers/amps ect) can produce constantly at a happy level.. also known as Nominal power Handling

most amps will have raiting like 500w max but only 150WRMS

then you have those ultra cheap brands that say 1200w.. and they are only 50wrms.. (they use the max power as a marketing ploy to make there stuff impressive)


so the question is.. i want to power up my system.. how much RMS do i need?

most 6X9 will only get about 50-150wrms - so they sepakers you see at jb hi-fi claiming 400w is a max power reading.. you put an amp with 400wrms trhough them.. bye bye speakers really quick


hez is right saying 400w will not run a sub... and 400WRMS would be overkill.. (maybe- depends on how loud you want it)

find yourself a good 100-300wRMS amp to run a sub.. my suggestions (and as i dont know how much you want to spend ill consider moderatly priced stuff)

Cadence
Jaycar Responce
Coustic
Alpine
maybe kicker... (there older stuff was better)


Stay way from - JVC/Kenwood/Sony/pioneer

and if you can afford it

Phenoix Gold (I can never spell it)
Rockford fosgate
Audison (Best i've heard)
U-Demension
Orion


AS for subs.. try the following brands

Focal
Rockford Fosgate - Punch Series
JL - W series
Kicker - there sqare subs are quite nice (L7 solobaric i think they are called)
Soundstream
Alpine type R's

Also which is the best postion to place sub in the FTO?

quick answer as im getting tyred from so much typing...

yes.. firing into the back of the seats will most likely get the best results..



finshing up.. my final comment and suggestion is this...

decide for yourself what you want for your car.. talk to some installers.. listen to what they have to say.. but dont take it as gospel... same for everything i said here.. the best judge on your car sound will be your own ears... your the only one who has to like it

oh.. and stay away from jb - they cant install crap!
i did my installing apprentiship at a few of them.. and they are all dodgy as!

if your in melbourne.. not sure if you are.. id be happy to sit down and talk to you about a setup and give you some ideas and questions to ask the stores...

thake your time when buying car audio gear.. its f**king expensive.. and you will regret it if some pushy sales kid makes you buy crap gear

[Boney]

also.. for sub postion refer back to your thread
http://www.ftoaustralia.com/modules.ph ... ighlight=

i have another stupid long post in there

[rxboy]

Thanx for that Hez & Boney, I really appreciate it! It's good to know this kinda stuff before u make a blind purchase.

I know about the max power trick, and I never really look at it. The RMS is rarely ever written on the box and u can usually look at the magnet on the speaker for it.

By the way, where does Clarion rate in that list of brands of yours Boney?

I've got about half a year before I'm going to buy anything, so I'm gonna do more research and check out what kinda setup sounds best for me. So thanks again for the "car audio for dummies" lesson 1

PS: I must have missed that old post that you are referring to Boney. Sorry that you had to write all that stuff again.

[d_stroy_r]

I think it would sound much better ig you got seperate amps for your speakers and subs eg 4 channel 200 watt rms and a 2 channel amp (power rating depending on the sub).

And if you on a bit of a budget, you cant beat either Alpine or Pioneer especially for subs.

ps dont buy crap sh*t because youll regret it later and dont let the salesperson give you advice because most of the times they will sell you some sony crap (they might sound good (personally i dont like them) but they are what the name says XPLODE after continous use).

thats my thoughts anywayz.

[GPXXX]

rxboy, how about this:

you tell us what your budget is, and what your music tastes are like and we'll recommend a system for you?

[rxboy]

I've got an unlimited budget

nah just kidding, i'm looking at maybe spending no more than $1200 all up (including installation)

having a look at Alpine Australia website right now.....

my music taste is varied, althoug I do lean towards doof-doof music (eg house/club/trance/techno)

[GPXXX]

I've got an unlimited budget

nah just kidding, i'm looking at maybe spending no more than $1200 all up (including installation)

having a look at Alpine Australia website right now.....

my music taste is varied, althoug I do lean towards doof-doof music (eg house/club/trance/techno)

well it looks like we're on the same boat... let's see, assuming you already have a head unit, for $1200 installed, i'd get:

Cadence Z4000 4-ch amp (75wrmsx4 or 300wrms x2) = ~$500
1x JL Audio W12 (200wrms i think) subwoofer = $150
a pair of Phoenix Gold Tantrum splits upfront = $300

The remaining leftovers for building the enclosure and installation...

Just the specs above should give you more than enough ooomph that sounds crisp and clear, and i reckon 130db is easily achievable (though you'd prob use only up to 40% of all that mumbo available most of the time...

[rxboy]

Where could I have the enclosure built? Aren't there any good subs out there which are already boxed?

[GPXXX]

Where could I have the enclosure built? Aren't there any good subs out there which are already boxed?

some of the subs you see @ JB do come with pre-built enclosures already, and though they are reasonably priced, i've heard some nasty stories that the MDF wood used to build the enclossure are not as thick or good quality... i dunno what are the real audible difference myself but to build them is not so expensive at all or so i've heard...

but anyways any car audio shops (incl JB) should be able to build the box for you, but yeah i've heard JB does a shocking job at installs!

[rxboy]

My JVC head-unit has 50W outputs. Would that be enough to run 50W RMS 6" front splits or should I still hook them up to an amp? If I don't have to, then I might as well save some money and just buy a 2 channel amp to run the sub only.

[GPXXX]

My JVC head-unit has 50W outputs. Would that be enough to run 50W RMS 6" front splits or should I still hook them up to an amp? If I don't have to, then I might as well save some money and just buy a 2 channel amp to run the sub only.

i have seen such installs in my mate's 280Z and if you run the subs without amplifying the front stage, the bass from the subwoofer will easily overpower the front speakers so the sound quality will be quite lousy... as a result, you will hear more boom boom boom instead of sharp, clear vocals, melodies or midrange frequencies... amplifying your splits and subs will give you a 'better sounding package'.

[G_A_V]

wohhhaa stop the music (no pun intended !) place the subs firing in to the back of the boot, many many people are mislead to facing them through the seats, but trust my i have moved my subs all over the car and facing th back had at least twice the bass as oposed to facing the front.

[rxboy]

I guess that makes sense, since bass is really non-directional anyways. But in that case, what difference does it make whether it faces the boot or the rear seats?

Does anyone else have any personal experiences with regard to sub direction?

[MADFTO]

Actually, all sound is directional, it's just that bass sound waves are of lower frequency, this I believe allows to travel further as the wave is harder to distort. This equals more reflections, so it appears it's coming from everywhere =P

Try this as a sound test. Place a subwoofer in a room outside your own(or even place your car near the house), I'm assuming you have a door, listen to how loud it is with the door open with the volume fairly loud.

Then listen to the bass with the door closed, you might be surprised which one is louder =P

Anyways, with all boxed sub woofers, the subs MUST be setup so they kick into the box, you could try to setup it up kicking outwards, but that'd defeat the purpose of the box =P

Anyways, having the subs kick inwards means that if you face the subwoofer towards the rear, the sub will be kicking towards cabin.

That means some of the primary energy used into the generating the sound (bass) will find its way to the cabin. This will give the appearance that it sounds louder =P

I believe that's general theory of it, I haven't studied physics in ages though =P